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JWH-018 Toxicology

By John Clarke

ToxicSince my last post about the spice behind Spice (and other smoking mixtures such as Smoke, Serenity Now, K2, Sence, etc), it has been brought to my attention that some initial toxicology testing has been done on the synthetic cannabinoid JWH-018. Before we get down to the details however, here’s some pretty weird background information – the sponsor and provider of these studies wishes to remain anonymous! Unfortunately, this makes the whole thing a lot less credible, but since this is the only information we have right now, let’s hope someone else can verify these things at a later date. So far, one professor (who also wishes to remain anonymous) thinks these are real, but as of yet, no one is willing to put their name down on any kind of formal statement. If you, or anyone you know, has the relevant expertise to look over these studies, please drop me a line!

(Quick Update – A lot of people have been discussing and linking to this post, but there remains some suspicion that I have something to gain by saying the JWH-018 isn’t that harmful. Firstly, JWH-018 is now illegal in the UK. Secondly, as I mentioned just above this, if I have got anything wrong, please pick me up on it! If it turns out my analysis of the data is incorrect, I will correct it!)

Feel free to invent your own conspiracy theories, but for now, let’s take a look at the data. You can download the PDF documents in this Zip file [2.04 MB]

CYP450 Inhibition Assay

This first assay looks at the effect of a drug on specific enzymes in your liver. These Cytochrome P450 enzymes are responsible for metabolising the vast majority of drugs you might put in your body, so if you’ve got too much of one drug in your system (ie paracetamol/acetaminophen), then other drugs that are also metabolised by these enzymes (ie alcohol) may compete for these enzymes and so hang around in your system for longer. As you can imagine, it’s important to understand how one drug may affect the metabolism of another, in case of any disasterous drug-drug interactions.

Results: JWH-018 will probably interact with the metabolism of other drugs, so more in vivo work is necessary.

hERG Binding Assay

hERG stands for human Ether-à-go-go Related Gene. This gene codes for a particular type of potassium channel found on heart tissue. This channel pumps potassium ions out of the heart muscle cells and are critical in coordinating the heart’s electrical activity. Unfortunately, these channels are a prime target for drugs to bind to, disrupting their function. This can lead to “Long QT Syndrome”, associated with fainting and can lead to sudden death, so you can see why these kinds of tests are important. Here’s a typical ECG recording showing what’s called the “QT interval” shown in blue, which lasts for longer than it should do if these channels are disrupted.

QT Interval

Results: JWH-018 does not interfere with these channels. That’s a good thing.

Cytotoxicity Assay

This simple test essentially looks at how many cells die when you perfuse them with a drug. The more cells that die, the more toxic the drug.

Results: JWH-018 is not cytotoxic at low concentrations.

GreenScreen HC Genotoxicity Assay

This assay looks at how much a drug will interfere with our DNA. Typically, anything that damages DNA is bad news, being potentially carcinogenic, making the rationale behind this test glaringly obvious. This test was also performed in the presence of a fraction taken from liver cells, which will break down the drug. This not only checks if the drug will damage DNA, but also its breakdown products.

Results: JWH-018 does not damage DNA, so shouldn’t give you cancer.

Rat Repeat Toxicity Assay

Guess what happens in this experiment. A number of renagade lab rats looking for a bad time are rounded up and promised free drugs (kind of like Pleasure Island from Pinocchio; that shit was scary!). The rats are then dosed up and observed. Initially, they appear lethargic (read: totally baked) but a few of them died at higher doses. This appears to be down to problems breathing rather than organ toxicity, but only affected the male rats, who appeared more sensitive to the compound. The drug didn’t appear to accumulate in their systems either, but they did lose some weight, probably because they couldn’t be arsed to eat. JWH-018 showed a huge potency and was found to be tachyphylactic (my new favourite word – it means that more of a drug is required to reach the same state following an initial dosage).

Results: According to FDA guidelines, the human equivalent dose is 0.016 mg/kg but it should be tested in other species before this can be seen as reliable!

Rat Pharmacokinetics

Data is collected on a number of different “pharmacokinetic” aspects of the drug, such as how it is absorbed, distributed throughout the body, metabolised and excreted, which can help with the design of future clinical trials.

Results: JWH-018 is distributed well throughout the rat’s tissues. Metabolism and excretion are normal, with a plasma half-life of approximately 2 hours

Summary

Well, from the looks of these tests, JWH-018 seems to be pretty safe, but unless you want to piss off Ben Goldacre, it would be wise not to rely on this “test tube data” entirely. Also, like I said before, we don’t know where this data has come from, clouding the issue even further.

Feel free to ask any questions in the comments.

Big thanks to Alfa @ Drugs-Forum.com for letting me know about these studies. You can read all about JWH-018 on their Drugs Wiki.

COMMENTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW CLOSED. YOU CAN CONTINUE DISCUSSING SYNTHETIC CANNABINOIDS HERE OR INDIVIDUAL SMOKING MIXTURES HERE..

444 Responses to JWH-018 Toxicology

  1. syrup1 says:

    I’m not a pro at the chemical stuff, but if it takes Alcohol to get it to break down and mix so it can used, I would venture to say it is not water soluble. Because it takes 190+ proof alcohol to get it to dissolve, see my reasoning? The medical portion of would reasonlike this: Alcohol is broken down in the liver, the liver breaks down fat, ie: this is I would presume a chemical that may linger in the fatty tissue of the body for a while. I am no Dr. but have 10yrs as an EMT, working in the ICU and ER and nursing homes as well. I believe if abused, like most chemicals, the few ruin for the many, this will be an illegal drug soon. The potential for abuse is very high. It only takes a few bad situations placed in the public eyes…

  2. Erod says:

    Well if that’s the case syrup1, and I’m not saying you’re wrong, but how could that be so if the half life of jwhxxx is just a couple of hours?

  3. nick says:

    i just want to say thanks for bring this stuff out to the people i just started to smoke this stuff and i really enjoy it i was wondering if there was any other way to use it if u can please let me know

    thanks and keep it up

  4. syrup1 says:

    the chemical may break down to other derivitives and those may be fat soluble as well, dont know for sure. I have enough fun figuring out the structure of H2O.

  5. Chrissy says:

    I don’t know about harmful..
    but…

    Someone packed a bowl of nothing but jwh 018.. and the bowl caught on fire, so I hit it until the fire went out… Now I don’t know what happened the 2 seconds after that.. But all of a sudden I was curled in a ball in the front seat, Unable to Talk or move. I couldn’t remember who I was, where I lived, where I was at, or who the people around me were… which were my best friends and my boyfriend. For the next 3 hours my eyes rolled in the back of my head and nobody could get a single response out of me except for “No.” when they mentioned the hospital. My heart was racing so fast I thought I was gonna die. I was so fucked up I honestly thought these people who I couldn’t remember tricked me into smoking crack. Sounds rediculous now, but it was just as intense as a previous bad acid trip. Into the 4th or 5th hour I came back into reality slightly and remembered somewhat of what happened and who I was. Even the next morning I felt a little fucked up still.

    So if you smoke this shit, be careful. Different people have different reactions.

  6. x1 says:

    ^
    Chrissy, I’m going to (not) go out on a limb and say that ANYBODY who slurps down a massive hit off a FULL, FLAMING BOWL of JWH is probably going to have a similar reaction, i.e. full blown overdose.

    I have to seriously question the mentality of the “someone” who “packed a bowl of nothing but jwh 018”. That someone is a damn fool.

    And I’m not sure what you were thinking, hitting that flaming accident waiting to happen.

    The only way that whole scenario could have been more stupid is if you and your crew recorded the incident and uploaded it to youtube, a la every stupid salvia n00b with a Flip camcorder.

    Stupid kids.

    And I’m sorry you went through that. Sorry to sound so harsh. I’ve had a couple bad times myself (not with JWH) so I can’t pretend to be holier than thou. I can definitely relate.

    Somewhere out there, some kid is reading these comments RIGHT NOW and is going to NOT OD because s/he GETS THE POINT. I hope.

    (Don’t smoke this stuff AT ALL, people! Liquefy and prosper!)

  7. syrup1 says:

    X1, correct me if i’m wrong but the meaning of “half life” is the time for a chemical or substance to breakdown into other substances. Half life does not mean for the drug or its components to be “out”of your system. They may be there but as other chemicals. Usually when a drug test is done they are looking for a chemical trails of what you have used, not the actual chemical, but its broken down ingredients after the body has processed the original drug. For our “Consumers” that I supervise they look for the drug and use a pretty high threshold, so it would only show fairly recent use. As for staff and maybe for that other employers, they look for ANY amount to show up in your system, using very extremely low threshold. i know this because I now what and how they test for these drugs, I used to process crime scenes and have a knowledge of a lab. They use standardized tests, and generally dont stray from it unless they are told to look elsewhere, or have a suspicion of something. So, just dont come to work high and give them just cause to drop you for an unknown drug. If they drop you and they know your high, but it doesnt show on tests, then they will “look” for other stuff that is not on the standardized drug tests. I hope this has helped a few people.

  8. syrup1 says:

    Got my order from jwh-018supply and it came in large envelope, with a plastic foil envelope inside it, with the zippy in it. packed very well. It has a sight yellow-ish tint to it.

  9. Berny says:

    x1- (anyone else also) If I make a 15 Mg/Gram Herbal mix and I use equal parts of 073 and 018 with Damiana would that sound like a mild mix with the 73 added in ? I was wondering if the 73 would lower the potency requiring me to need maybe a little heavier powder ratio than 15mg/gram? I figured from reading that 018 alone at around 10-20 mg/gram would be fairly potent but I want to use 073 and 018 together.
    I plan on using everclear.
    Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

  10. Jwndy says:

    Finally, I’ve found someone discussion long-term storage on another site. This is the most autoritative statement I’ve seen on this topic.

    “Tryptamines and other indoles (incl. JWH) are easily oxidised; you might want to store them in an inert atmosphere. Phenethylamines should be generally stable. Ergolines need to be in the freezer, and even then Eth-LAD doesn’t last very long. Dimethocaine should be stable, but it’s hygoroscopic so you may want to store it with calcium chloride (available as a deicer or drying agent) to keep it from turning into glue. Nonclassical cannabinoids (CP-series) have been reported to degrade easily so I’m going with the freezer on that note, but I don’t know what exactly causes the degradation.

    Putting some Vitamin C into solution with whatever may stop it from oxidising. There’s a lot of mythology surrounding Vitamin C but it is a decent antioxidant, all things considered.”

    They also mention that storage in solution (Everclear) will enhance long-term stability.

    If they say anything else exciting, I’ll keep you posted.

  11. lazarus says:

    I’ve been following that thread also, and it now appears to be trending more to dry storage. Even if oxidation is a verifiable concern, which is in some doubt, the ethanol itself is said to contain dissolved oxygen. Moreover, as I have read elsewhere – there is the additional concern that many compounds are less stable in solution.

    Dry may yet be the preferable option.

    I had a feeling these were the “go-to” guys.

  12. Berny says:

    I want to use 15 mg (073 and 018 in equal parts) per gram of Damiana. Since it has the 073 would that be strong enough?

  13. x1 says:

    Jwndy, lazarus –

    I can’t make out any definitive “winning” storage path from that thread you guys are referencing (which is on bluelight, for anyone else keeping score).

    The consensus seems to be that JWH is pretty stable as powder, with its enemies being the typical sort (light, heat, air).

    However, the info offered re: ethanol seems dubious.

    I am suspicious of some of the “expertise” of the poster named TheAzo, namely because he says “the solubility of JWH in ethanol is not that great, and in cold ethanol is even less soluble”.

    This is factually inaccurate. It is WATER that JWH doesn’t like. It dissolves just fine in ethanol. And here I am talking about real ethanol….not the 151-proof crap that has been watered down (it is the watering down that inhibits JWH dissolution).

    A warm water bath will enable quicker dissolution….but as I and others have handily documented, even room temp 190-proof will produce satisfactory dissolution of the powder if stirred and agitated with patience. And once dissolved, it does not exhibit a tendency to “undissolve” under refrigeration. At least, I have not seen any evidence of recrystallization, oxidation, what have you.

    It makes me think that TheAzo does not have any practical experience with this method of handling/storing JWH, and is therefore not reliable on this issue. The fellow does go on to express rather a distaste for the JWH family in general…but does not make it clear exactly why….so I am even less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    In more than one place, I have read comments to the effect that “compounds are generally less stable in solution”. This might be generally true…or it might not. It is a vague enough statement, to be sure. What about THIS compound, and what about THIS solution? How come so many much more complex organic constructions, such as biological specimens, store and preserve just fine for decades in ethanol? Why would the same preservational logic not apply to JWH?

    I am genuinely asking, since I am an amateur rube. If someone reading this can definitively answer such questions, please do so here and we ALL will be super-grateful!

    In the meantime, we (and our stashes) are the guinea pigs…

  14. Tim says:

    Yep… guinea pigs we are. And ain’t it great?

    The gov’t is getting all this free research and we’re — for the most part, most of us — are having a pretty good time. So it seems…

    Maybe it’s toxic in the long term and we’ll all die horrible deaths. But I think not. I think the gov’t needs to fund MORE research by competent chemists/entheobiologists and come up with more stuff everyone wants and enjoys — and make it available at a reasonable price for reasonable people to use in a reasonable way.

    Just kinda stands to reason, doesn’t it?

  15. x1 says:

    Boy you said it Tim.

    I have been watching the slow domino roll of some of our more conservative Midwestern and Southeastern US states (Kansas, Tennessee, Georgia, Louisiana…who’d I forget?) as they’ve recently moved to illegalize the JWH family, as has already been done ‘cross the pond.

    The unscientific irrationality of it is preposterous, because there is no reasonable examination and no middle ground. It’s simply, “Yikes! Kids are gettin’ stoned! Quick, ban it!”

    And the votes in these state legislatures are overwhelmingly in favor of the outright ban, with almost no discussion. Not one consideration of “Hey, why don’t we make this illegal for minors, and regulate and tax it for consumption by adults, with reasonable provision for the education and dissemination of information about possible risks?”

    Nope! Screw that! Outright ban! Substance is automatically guilty of being evil (without any compelling statistical evidence of it actually being harmful, physiologically or societally speaking), and now that it is is illegal, substance cannot be studied for reassessment and reconsideration of its default evil/dangerous/illegal status without considerable hardship, expense, and hoop-jumping. Therefore, most research scientists will say “screw it”, and move on to something else. Another lost potential medicine, commodity, and cultural totem.

    So much for freedom, liberty, and free markets! Conservatives do love whacking things with the ban stick.

  16. lazarus says:

    As noted – Europe banned the compound before the US was even aware it existed. I hardly see the Europeans as being the undisputed bastions of conservatism.
    The fact that the votes on these state measures are so overwhelming bears out that it is not so much a conservative vs. liberal issue – as much as it is both endemic and systemic for our culture as a whole to perpetuate the use of “approved” forms of mind-altering compounds (alcohol, pharmaceuticals, etc.) while fanatically demonizing any and all “unapproved” compounds. The “government knows best” credo does not appear to have a particular political affiliation. Nor does it have a stellar track record of late.

    But getting back to the storage issue – it seems to me there are (at least) two different points to be considered here.
    Is there any solidly conclusive data verifying that oxidation is a primary cause of degradation? If so – I haven’t seen it yet. Granting for the sake of argument that oxidation is a serious concern, there still does not seem to be any way – other than replacing the oxygen with an inert gas – to completely eliminate oxygen contact. The best one can do is minimize it and both methods appear to have the potential for doing that.

    And you’re right x1 – I have found nothing other than conjecture about the stability of this particular compound in this particular solution.

    It seems we come full circle. Such is the world of the RC. In the absence of completed scientific testing and analysis – it’s all guesswork.

    So…it could very well come down to these two questions of practicality; what method of ingestion is preferred and how much discreet/secure freezer storage space does one have?

    Until definitive data is produced, it would seem preferable to have dry powder ready to place in solution (if/when ethanol solution proves to be the best method), than to have to reverse that process should dry storage prove to be the best – and the RC is now sitting in solution.

  17. Erod says:

    So this probly means, if they haven’t already, that they’ll probly move forward with developing some sort of test, right?

  18. x1 says:

    Sorry lazarus, I didn’t mean to imply that Europeans were more “conservative” (obviously they aren’t, or at least can’t be lumped together like that….although what’s up with the burqa bans? I mean, seriously, what the fuck?!).

    I can’t really comment on the UK/Europe at all, other than to say that Gordon Brown seems like a bit of a clutz, and Spanish beaches are full of hotties.

    Well, as regards US state legislatures, the tip of the spear on the way to national JWH prohibition IS definitely more of our traditional hardcore conservative bastion states thus far…I mean, with the exception of Kansas, all the states that have taken action thus far are “Southern” (and Kansas is honorary Southern, by virtue of the state school board’s continuing mutual masturbation with the Discovery Institute), where oftentimes the Democrats in the legislatures are just as socially conservative as the Republicans. There aren’t really very many liberals to be found yet to even take up the argument for consideration. It will be interesting to see if there is any more sign of intelligent life when these matters are taken up in legislatures outside the Confederacy or the Bible Belt. Although I won’t get my hopes up. Maybe at least Oregon won’t immediately roll over.

    OK…so we remain “inconclusive” on long term storage. The good news is some of us have powder, and some of us have liquid. I’ll be sure to report the continuing condition of my juice. You powder mongers do the same.

  19. Jwndy says:

    One piece of fairly conclusive evidence of oxidation of JWH might be the bad batch everyone got from RezChems last month. Alec (the head sales mgr) told me on the phone that their truck was delayed (in TX?) for a while and the product was overexposed and oxidized, thus producing the redish tint people were reporting. There was one other post in one of my earlier “snippet” copies that said that Oxidation could cause a reddish tint.

    This may not be conclusive, but it does provide two data points in favor of 1) the product is susceptible to oxidation , and 2) it degrates product quality.

  20. lazarus says:

    Erod –
    It’s been reported that the NCAA is feverishly pushing to develop a test. With the performance enhancing RCs continuing to be a problem in athletics it seems the testers will now have an even wider net to cast.

    I know next-to-nothing about the potential costs of such “enhanced” testing. but it seems to me that the average employer is not likely to invest in a series of expansive drug tests – unless they believe they have some specific reason to. With everyone seeking to cut costs it appears more probable that in the short-term they will stick to the standardized procedures for routine testing.
    Now that the nanny state is hell-bent on nipping the spice “problem” in the bud – it may be some time before the JWH tests are expanded beyond the athletic programs.

    But like everything else – only time will tell.

    x1 –
    With the “conservative” states on such a roll with this crusade – how long do you think it will be before the feds institute a nationwide ban? I mean, “it’s all for the sake of the children!”
    As the publicity increases so will the pressure on Washington to do something about this horrific epidemic. Regarding those states that will have not yet have instituted local bans, the position the feds have taken regarding states that have eased cannabis restrictions is a pretty good indication of where this may be headed.
    Who knows – they might just resort to invoking the interstate commerce clause. They seem fond of using it for everything else.

    “Powder monger” – hmm…
    Nah – I think I’ll stick with “lazarus”.

  21. Amber says:

    lazarus-
    Your comment “it’s all for the sake of the children”
    If the government truly believe that there would be no legal tobacco or alcohol.
    Most children get a hold of those way before they ever smoke marijuana or any of its legal affiliates.
    But wait! They make taxes off of those thing….

  22. Overwatch says:

    I’ve been lurking within this forum for six months and wanted to thank everyone for their participation. Input from X1, Lazarus and many others have been a great and frequently consulted resource for my “research”.

    I decided to post after reading the “legislative” turn this thread has taken. Living in Missouri, deep in the heart of the bible-belt / methamphetamine capital of the world, our state is following Kansas in this ban. I wanted to quote a Missouri State Representative during a recent interview regarding the bill to ban JWH compounds he sponsored.

    Missouri state Rep. Ward Franz, (R-West Plains) said “We don’t know much about this, but it’s going to end up killing somebody,” Franz said.

    Ha! Seriously? We don’t know anything about it — it’s going to kill someone. I think this pretty much sums up their idiotic, fear mongering approach to this and their quest to pass a law under an “emergency clause”. Ironically the West Plains area where Franz originates is likely the largest meth producing region in the state.

    Additionally, I’ll weigh in on SACRA Research. I’ve used them twice and can only echo the positive reports. I questioned via E-mail their lower purity report and darker than expected color. They promptly replied with plausible justification which educated me a bit.

    I started vaping -18 but it quickly grew out of favor after feeling like a Meth tweeker w/ a light bulb and lighter. I’ve been bonging a herbal blend for a few months with great results. Still slightly un-nerved about not known what’s in the blend, I’m going to make a 400 ml liquid E batch this week. I’ve ordered -18 & -73, a 500 ml graduated cylinder and will following X1’s ratio / volume. I will report back with a comparison to vaping and herbal blends.

  23. lazarus says:

    Sacra advertises the 018 as “beige solid”, the 073 as “light yellow solid”with purity levels at 97+ to 99+% respectively. Did the actual product vary from these descriptions? And what kind of explanation did they give you? It would be interesting if they claimed to have had an oxidation issue as well.

    As for your state’s pending legislation, I’ve been told by one of your fellow Missourians that the Senate has removed the insane felony sentencing provision found in the House version. It seems there are some senators concerned the state has already locked up too many kids for getting high.
    Golly gee – d’ya think?

  24. x1 says:

    Missouri! Ah, that’s who I forgot. A very interesting state. The quintessential split state. Half the population is still living in the middle ages. The other half are trying soooo hard to progress-ify, god bless ’em.

    And I forgot Kentucky. The legislators in Kentucky don’t know much about this stuff either. But they, too, are certain that the things they don’t understand should be insta-banned, just in case.

    Overwatch, just be ready for a longer, stronger test. You probably need minimum 6 hours for the main arc, but honestly the only thing that can recharge and refresh the brain after the heavier oral inebriation is a good bit of sleep. Don’t plan on attending your jazzercise class. If previously unitiated, during peak of a 3 mL liquid dose (7.5 mg JWH intake) you’ll be considerably arsed* just to get off the couch.

    *UK-origin of blog, RESPEK

  25. Synchronium says:

    Respek.

    So, is this getting a bit long now? Shall set up a new post and the discussion can carry on in the comments there?

  26. x1 says:

    Works for me, Mr. Synch. Thanks so much for hosting. Lots yet to be discussed and considered. Our DEA moves slow. We may yet be JWH legal over here for a while…another 6 months to a year at LEAST, anyway.

  27. Overwatch says:

    Lazarus: The color of my -18 could accurately be described as beige. Sort of a light sand color would be another accurate description. Expecting an off white powder and a higher purity percentage, I sent them an E-mail inquiry. They replied basically saying color is not indicative of purity and it varies based upon production and origin. They listed a color range that they have seen / sold that ranged from white through brown. I unfortunately deleted the E-mail so I can’t quote it entirely. They did however not mention, nor did I ask, anything about oxidation issues.

    Your Missourian friend is correct regarding the bill going back to the House following an amendment paralleling the penalties with those of marijuana. I would anticipate it being law in roughly 30 days. And thank goodness for that. It will give a warm, glowing sense of accomplishment to all involved in this “Fake Reefer Madness” while Missouri continues to lead in Meth manufacturing and the state spirals into an unprecedented debt.

    X1: I’m looking forward to the 6 hour ride and experiencing -73 which I can only assume I haven’t had in the herbal blends. I do however hope it still packs the two hour fist pumping, air guitar playing, lip syncing enhanced music appreciation I get with the herbal blends. Not to mention the enhancement of sex which I would assume parallels MDMA. (By the way, your comment about the rat autopsy / killer orgasm drifted humorously through my mind during the act a few days ago.) If not, I may try a heavier -18 ratio.

  28. x1 says:

    Ha! Oh, don’t worry. You’re gonna get the total musico-genital power punch. If I were not a somewhat disciplined creature, this stuff would’ve morphed me into a permanently useless quivering slobbering manslut.

    I am reminded of the warning in the Cialis commercials…”If you get an erection lasting more than four hours…”

  29. Jwndy says:

    The color of my Sacra 018 was beige, tan, sand (all three woudl be about right). The interesting thing was the 073 was exactly the same color. Was anyone else’s Sacra 073 the same color as their 018? The package was labled correctly, but you couldn’t tell them apart by the color. I haven’t tried my 073 yet.

    Sacra seems to be a reputable company. It is even on the Google “preferred” list (or whatever they call it…….along with Research Chemicals), so I’m not really questioning their honesty. I was just wondering if anyone got the same colors as I did.

    On another front, I tried K2 Summit from k2incense.org. I also tried their Ultra, which was pretty good, but the Summit (or at least this Summit) was said to be the 3.2 beer of synthetics by one of my friends. If this is typical of Summit, then it really makes me wonder what caused all the rave reviews over the last year. I’ve posted a few questions at Kogged, but got no response. Does anyone else have experience with this supplier?

  30. Erod says:

    Just wondering what do you folks think, or know about Black Mamba? Tried it, thought it was cool. Went out a couple days later and bought two differnt drug test and passed, that’s hoe real the effects felt. Just want to know what you thought of B. M. Thanks.

  31. IcYA says:

    Hey guys

    Firsst of all I wanted to say thank you for all of these valuable posts. I have been following this forum/blog for a while now and have learned a lot. It is quite amazing to me where science is going, and the ability to truly study the cannaboid receptors to prove once and for all the medical application of marijuana! After reading all your posts for some time now I thought it was time for me to pipe in (no pun intended ; )) and clear up some loose ends that haven’t been talked about.

    First of all I want to throw something out that all of my fellow potheads here can 100% agree with……. As we all know, there are two forms of weed. The Indica, and the Sativa. For those who don’t know, the indica is more of a body stoned feeling, the feeling where moving from the couch is one of the hardest things we’ve ever done. The indica has a greater affinity to the CB2 recpetor, which is apart of the peripheral nervous system. The peripheral nervous system is what controls our bodily fuctions without us thinking, ie. Breathing, heart beat, the feeling of hot or cold. So when the CB2 recpetor is activated it is believed that a separation occurs between the peripheral nervous system, and the central nervous system. When I say separation I only mean that the signals are firing, well, slower! That’s why we get so “stoned” from a good purple. Our brain is in fact talking to our body…. Slower! So in turn, we move….. slower!

    Now for the sativas! Oh the sativas! A good sativa is known to give the user energy, a functional high. This happens because sativas are known to have a higher binding affinity to the CB1 receptor which is found in the central nervous system. Aka the brain and the spinal chord. One of the main actions that takes place from the CB1 receptor activation is the inhibition of our main inhibitory neurotransmitters GABA. For those who don’t know GABA is part of what makes us tired, Gaba slows the transmission of our exitory neurotransmitters such as Dopamine, Epinephrine, and Nor-epinephrine. So when the CB1 receptor is activated it SLOWS the output of GABA, which in turn SPEEDS UP the output of Dopamine, Epinephrine, and Nor-epinephrine! So with more dopamine floating around in our body we in turn get more energy!

    Sorry to ramble on about real weed, but I felt it was necessary to give a simple explanation of the cannaboid receptors. After all that’s what our great JWH compounds affect!

    Now to the actual subject of this entire blog….. JWH!

    I think its important to know that the JWH, and all synthetic cannabinoids were in fact created to have affinity to only 1 of the two receptors. Like I said in the beginning scientists are trying to find out exactly where and what causes the medicinal effects of marijuana. So for JWH-018, this compound was created to be a PURE INDICA…. Its affinity to the CB2 receptor is about 3-4 times greater than to the CB1 receptor. This is why when the 18 is ingested we get the body stoned feeling. JWh-018 has an overall higher binding affinity to both receptors vs normal, real weed, so an overdose is a very real situation! For the poster above named Chrissy….. you are very very lucky your still walking around normally! Im assuming an entire bowl of JWh would equate to about 400mg’s….. which from my calculations is in fact…. An overdose!

    My personal favorite JWH compounds is the 081! This compound has a 10x greater affinity to the CB1 receptor than to the CB2. Which means it gives fantastic energy! For me personally it leaves me with an extremely clear mind, and a higher state on consciousness.

    Now as far as storage goes…. About 8 months ago I was also wondering all these same questions as far as what is the best way to preserve, and amplify the effects of the JWH. So I tried two things. One I went and bought some everclear and made myself a small bottle to where 1ml=10mg’s. Two I tried cooking it with coconut oil, which contains primarily saturated fats. I weighed out the oil so 1 gram of oil(one gram of fat) would contain 10mg’s. coconut oil solidifies at room temperature so I poped it in the fridge with the everclear. The oil worked right off the bat! The everclear took about 2 months before I could feel any solid effects….. however one things is for sure….. after about 4 months of sitting the everclear seemed to WAY OVERPOWER the fat… so it tells me the everclear just takes time. However I never tried heating the everclear,, probably would have saved a lot of time! Oh well.
    By the way I used the 081 in these tests.

    Anyways guys thanks for reading and please correct me if I am not correct on anything, were all just trying to learn!

    Enjoy you RC’s

  32. Synchronium says:

    For those who don’t know, the indica is more of a body stoned feeling, the feeling where moving from the couch is one of the hardest things we’ve ever done. The indica has a greater affinity to the CB2 recpetor, which is apart of the peripheral nervous system. The peripheral nervous system is what controls our bodily fuctions without us thinking, ie. Breathing, heart beat, the feeling of hot or cold.

    No.

    The CB2 receptor is expressed primarily in immune cells and the gut. Activation doesn’t seem to cause any psychoactive effects. Also, the peripheral nervous system doesn’t control any of those things. Your peripheral nervous system includes things like sensory neurones, pain fibres, motor fibres, etc. Your central, or autonomic nervous system (ie brain) control all of the above.

    I’m sure GABA doesn’t make us feel tired either. It’s an inhibitory neurotransmitter, sure, but that doesn’t mean it slows us down or anything. It acts like a brake, preventing certain signals from being sent as and when required. Check out the “glutamate hypothesis” behind schizophrenia for more info.

    Not read the rest about JWH-xxx yet, got a doob to smoke.

    Out of interest, where did you acquire this “phamarcology knowledge”? Perhaps we can suggest some better sources?

    Also, I’ll create that second thread later tonight or tomorrow.

  33. IcYa says:

    University of Hawaii manoa.. Biochemistry, and botnochemistry majors.

    This blog is mostly about JWH and not biology so I didn’t want to get into it to much. Sorry if some of the information is off it’s just my understanding. And I respectfully disagree about GABA. I cannot speak for anyone but myself but GABA inducing compounds make me tired.

    That’d be great if u could start a more biochemistry based blog!
    Thanks for the corresctions

  34. Synchronium says:

    Actually, you’re right about GABA making you feel drowsy (of course, benzos, barbs etc), sorry.

    You’re probably wrong about CB1 & GABA interactions though. You paint far too simplistic a picture.

    I reckon the differences between indica and sativa lie in the differing affinities at other receptors of the compounds in each. Indica strains may contain a higher proportion of something that acts on GABA receptors, for instance. Whatever the reason, the CB1 receptor is the only cannabinoid receptor of interest here.

    Here are a few biochem related posts:

  35. Sasha says:

    Let me begin with my credentials as it may be of significant importance to those of you who read this post. While I would not consider myself to be anything close to an expert in cannabonoid receptors, I have done my own personal research into this topic as well as the information I have gained throughout my educational career. I am currently attending my third year at the University of Southern California Medical School and have gained an interest in the topic of cannabonoids and their respecting receptors as I am a self proclaimed pot head.

    I personally do not agree with the above statement from Synchronium. Yes IcYA was incorrect about the nervous system, however saying no effects come from the CB2 activation is trying to tell everyone who has tried JWH18 that they are feeling nothing and it is all a placebo effect. I have found an excellent link from another forum showing the various binding affinities for numerous cannabinoid compounds.
    http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117873

    About the GABA. Its my opinion both of you are correct, IcYA wasnt being precise about his word choices and did not explain it correctly. However he is correct about GABA making you tired. Thus why GHB and all sleep medications work through GABA.

    To all those following this blog it is my suggestion for you to do your own research through various medical publications. JWH as well as the various other cannabonoids are classified as a “research chemical.” I would suggest to all to do your own research through alternative methods as opposed to taking any individuals posting as the the definitive truth on JWH.

  36. Synchronium says:

    I don’t think binding affinities are the whole story.

    My main issue was that saying CB1 receptors only “targeted” by one type of weed. CB1 receptors do lead to reduced GABA release, but CB1 receptors are responsible for most of the effects of Indica AND sativa strains.

    I’m pretty sure that a highly selective CB2 agonist (not just selective for CB2 over CB1, but selective like salvinorin-a is for the k opioid receptor) would have negligable psychoactive effect. Like I mentioned before, other compounds could be binding to other receptors. What I forgot to mention, and perhaps probably more importantly, the different compounds could also bind to novel cannabinoid receptors not yet classified. That could be the case for JWH-018 too.

  37. Erod says:

    Uhhhhhh, anybody else ever feel like the whole world is a tuxedo, and you’re just a pair of brown shoes. I just want to get a feel what you all (if you used it)think of black mamba.

  38. syrup1 says:

    So, how would this work for migraines? I have a daughter who has severe migrines. I was wondering if this would help her? I think some of it may be anxiety related.

  39. IcYA says:

    syrup1

    Its just my opinion that any cannabinoid will not be helpful if the migraines are in fact migraines. now if they are anxiety related, absolutely some of these compounds would help!

    i do have a few suggestions for you though. A friend of mine used to have terrible migraines and it turns out she was extremely magnesium deficient! any form of magnesium would do however i would suggest magnesium bicarbonate. You actually have to make that form of magnesium but its verrrrryyyy simple! here is a post about it, and do your own search on magnesium bicarbonate and ull see why i sugggest it… its great stuff!
    http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f11/make-your-own-magnesium-bicarbonate-drink-tastes-sweet-46555/

    hope it helps

  40. Jwndy says:

    Unless I am wrong (which happens more than I like), the JWH-018 is the sativa “peppy” like substance that binds to CB1 and the JWH-073 is the indica “stony” substance that binds to CB2.

    I read that in a couple of other places, but it is also stated in Posts 55 and 95 above.

    From Wiki: When smoked or orally ingested, JWH-018 produces some effects similar to those of cannabis. Its effects are by some persons considered as very similar to those of cannabis, but more of a general body high with unusually clear cerebral effects, the difference being analogous to that between cannabis that has a higher component ratio of cannabis sativa to cannabis indica.

    JWH-073 is an analgesic chemical from the naphthoylindole family, which acts as a cannabinoid agonist at both the CB1 and CB2 receptors. It is somewhat selective for the CB2 subtype, with affinity at this subtype approximately 5x the affinity at CB1.[2] The abbreviation JWH stands for John W. Huffman, one of the inventors of the compound

    Who is right?

  41. Sasha says:

    Well you are correct it does bind to CB1, however it has a 3-4x greater affinity to CB2

    IcYA is correct, if youve ever tried 81, youll know the difference. the 81 is a very “peppy” compound

    check out this forum, it lays out all the synthetic compounds and shows their binding affinity

    http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117873

  42. Travis says:

    ok, so weed is great and it grows the way it does,, i think we should all stick with it,

    k2 works but still there is something to be said about the nice red hairs and purple buds that u can never beat,, best upside is drug testing 🙂

    KEEP IT REAL lol

  43. x1 says:

    I think we’re all being thrown for a loop by the term “binding affinity,” and tending to force our own interpretations of what we think that means, for different receptors, as regards the extremely complex phenomenon of a head and/or body stone.

    The 018 hits as cerebral…but it also hits the body. I have read it described as a sativa/indica hybrid tilting more toward sativa. Whereas I have read 073 described more as indica, body-oriented, without the cerebral or manic edge of 018. But these are inadequate, rough generalizations. And you certainly can’t gauge the experiential differences by peering at a binding affinity chart. I think Synch’s point about novel receptors is timely, because there is recent evidence for such, which dramatically complexificates the whole shebang.

    And now at the risk of falling back into the forced crude interpretation black hole, can it be said that CB1 is the gateway to stoningham, and CB2 is the bridge to painkillerton? And mixing complementary agonists is like having a carefully planned orgy at the commons, but without reckoning that all the homeless who live in the woods nearby would drop trow and storm the flesh pile?

  44. Synchronium says:

    CB2 receptors do seem to be involved with nociception:

    The cannabinoid receptors CB(1) and CB(2) are class A G-protein-coupled receptors. It is well known that cannabinoid receptor agonists produce relief of pain in a variety of animal models by interacting with cannabinoid receptors. CB(1) receptors are located centrally and peripherally, whereas CB(2) receptors are expressed primarily on immune cells and tissues. A large body of preclinical data supports the hypothesis that either CB(2)-selective agonists or CB(1) agonists acting at peripheral sites, or with limited CNS exposure, will inhibit pain and neuroinflammation without side effects within the CNS. There has been a growing interest in developing cannabinoid agonists. Many new cannabinoid ligands have been synthesized and studied covering a wide variety of novel structural scaffolds. This review focuses on the present development of cannabinoid agonists with an emphasis on selective CB(2) agonists and peripherally restricted CB(1) or CB(1)/CB(2) dual agonists for treatment of inflammatory and neuropathic pain.

    Cheng Y, Hitchcock SA. Targeting cannabinoid agonists for inflammatory and neuropathic pain. Expert Opin Investig Drugs. 2007 Jul;16(7):951-65.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17594182

    This bit is also interesting:

    … A large body of preclinical data supports the hypothesis that either CB(2)-selective agonists or CB(1) agonists acting at peripheral sites, or with limited CNS exposure, will inhibit pain and neuroinflammation without side effects within the CNS. …

    Peripherally acting CB1 agonists / CB2 agonists –> no psychoactive “side effects”.

    Surely then the difference between the JWH-xxx’s is due to binding at novel cannabinoid receptors or other receptors we haven’t considered.

    COMMENTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW CLOSED. YOU CAN CONTINUE DISCUSSING SYNTHETIC CANNABINOIDS HERE OR INDIVIDUAL SMOKING MIXTURES HERE.