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JWH-018 Toxicology

By John Clarke

ToxicSince my last post about the spice behind Spice (and other smoking mix­tures such as Smoke, Serenity Now, K2, Sence, etc), it has been brought to my atten­tion that some initial tox­ic­o­logy testing has been done on the syn­thetic can­nabinoid JWH-​​018. Before we get down to the details however, here’s some pretty weird back­ground inform­a­tion — the sponsor and pro­vider of these studies wishes to remain anonymous! Unfor­tu­nately, this makes the whole thing a lot less cred­ible, but since this is the only inform­a­tion we have right now, let’s hope someone else can verify these things at a later date. So far, one pro­fessor (who also wishes to remain anonymous) thinks these are real, but as of yet, no one is willing to put their name down on any kind of formal state­ment. If you, or anyone you know, has the rel­evant expertise to look over these studies, please drop me a line!

(Quick Update — A lot of people have been dis­cussing and linking to this post, but there remains some sus­pi­cion that I have some­thing to gain by saying the JWH-​​018 isn’t that harmful. Firstly, JWH-​​018 is now illegal in the UK. Secondly, as I men­tioned just above this, if I have got any­thing wrong, please pick me up on it! If it turns out my ana­lysis of the data is incor­rect, I will correct it!)

Feel free to invent your own con­spiracy the­ories, but for now, let’s take a look at the data. You can down­load the PDF doc­u­ments in this Zip file [2.04 MB]

CYP450 Inhibition Assay

This first assay looks at the effect of a drug on spe­cific enzymes in your liver. These Cyto­chrome P450 enzymes are respons­ible for meta­bol­ising the vast majority of drugs you might put in your body, so if you’ve got too much of one drug in your system (ie paracetamol/​acetaminophen), then other drugs that are also meta­bol­ised by these enzymes (ie alcohol) may compete for these enzymes and so hang around in your system for longer. As you can imagine, it’s important to under­stand how one drug may affect the meta­bolism of another, in case of any dis­as­terous drug-​​drug interactions.

Results: JWH-​​018 will prob­ably interact with the meta­bolism of other drugs, so more in vivo work is necessary.

hERG Binding Assay

hERG stands for human Ether-​​à-​​go-​​go Related Gene. This gene codes for a par­tic­ular type of potassium channel found on heart tissue. This channel pumps potassium ions out of the heart muscle cells and are crit­ical in coördin­ating the heart’s elec­trical activity. Unfor­tu­nately, these chan­nels are a prime target for drugs to bind to, dis­rupting their func­tion. This can lead to “Long QT Syn­drome”, asso­ci­ated with fainting and can lead to sudden death, so you can see why these kinds of tests are important. Here’s a typical ECG recording showing what’s called the “QT interval” shown in blue, which lasts for longer than it should do if these chan­nels are disrupted.

QT Interval

Results: JWH-​​018 does not inter­fere with these chan­nels. That’s a good thing.

Cytotoxicity Assay

This simple test essen­tially looks at how many cells die when you perfuse them with a drug. The more cells that die, the more toxic the drug.

Results: JWH-​​018 is not cyto­toxic at low concentrations.

GreenScreen HC Genotoxicity Assay

This assay looks at how much a drug will inter­fere with our DNA. Typ­ic­ally, any­thing that damages DNA is bad news, being poten­tially car­ci­no­genic, making the rationale behind this test glar­ingly obvious. This test was also per­formed in the pres­ence of a frac­tion taken from liver cells, which will break down the drug. This not only checks if the drug will damage DNA, but also its break­down products.

Results: JWH-​​018 does not damage DNA, so shouldn’t give you cancer.

Rat Repeat Toxicity Assay

Guess what happens in this exper­i­ment. A number of ren­agade lab rats looking for a bad time are rounded up and prom­ised free drugs (kind of like Pleasure Island from Pinoc­chio; that shit was scary!). The rats are then dosed up and observed. Ini­tially, they appear leth­argic (read: totally baked) but a few of them died at higher doses. This appears to be down to prob­lems breathing rather than organ tox­icity, but only affected the male rats, who appeared more sens­itive to the com­pound. The drug didn’t appear to accu­mu­late in their systems either, but they did lose some weight, prob­ably because they couldn’t be arsed to eat. JWH-​​018 showed a huge potency and was found to be tachy­phylactic (my new favourite word — it means that more of a drug is required to reach the same state fol­lowing an initial dosage).

Results: According to FDA guidelines, the human equi­valent dose is 0.016 mg/​kg but it should be tested in other species before this can be seen as reliable!

Rat Pharmacokinetics

Data is col­lected on a number of dif­ferent “phar­ma­cokin­etic” aspects of the drug, such as how it is absorbed, dis­trib­uted throughout the body, meta­bol­ised and excreted, which can help with the design of future clin­ical trials.

Results: JWH-​​018 is dis­trib­uted well throughout the rat’s tissues. Meta­bolism and excre­tion are normal, with a plasma half-​​life of approx­im­ately 2 hours

Summary

Well, from the looks of these tests, JWH-​​018 seems to be pretty safe, but unless you want to piss off Ben Gol­dacre, it would be wise not to rely on this “test tube data” entirely. Also, like I said before, we don’t know where this data has come from, clouding the issue even further.

Feel free to ask any ques­tions in the comments.

Big thanks to Alfa @ Drugs​-Forum​.com for letting me know about these studies. You can read all about JWH-​​018 on their Drugs Wiki.

COM­MENTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW CLOSED. YOU CAN CON­TINUE DIS­CUSSING SYN­THETIC CAN­NABIN­OIDS HERE OR INDI­VIDUAL SMOKING MIX­TURES HERE.

444 Responses to JWH-018 Toxicology

  1. Tommy says:

    Pooh–
    What was the ques­tion you had for Research Chem­icalz? We aren’t aware of any mes­sages and the phones are being answered.

  2. pooh says:

    i left an email over the weekend using the online form. i ref­er­enced my order number, etc. if you’ve read my pre­vious posts, you’ll see i had some trouble with the potency of the 018.

    should i call instead?

    thanks for listening!

  3. Tommy says:

    Just email me dir­ectly at support@​researchchemicalz.​com or tommy@​naturesuphoria.​com. If you sent an email over the weekend, it should have been responded to. Please check your spam.

    It’s always quicker to call our 800# though

  4. Tim says:

    It may help to use a small glass or some­thing to press/​roll over the JWH in the ziplock BEFORE taking it out to dis­solve in the EverClear or whatever ya got… don’t want to crunch down hard enough to bust the ziplock — but it might take care of some small chunks of powder that would oth­er­wise take longer to dissolve.

  5. .;{AbSyNtHeTiCs};. says:

    Just got my Sacra order in. Took awhile because fedex LOST it for 3 days but it got here in a water­proof package, inside was another plastic­like water­proof pack­aging, inside it was a clearish foil package (like what k2 is usually sold in) , inside it , was nice looking clear baggie with a printed label on it!, Also the ship­ment of 500mg of jwh73 included product inform­a­tion sheet which is VERY nice! I will update once i research this shipment !

  6. .;{AbSyNtHeTiCs};. says:

    sacra = sacred! I give them 4 0ut 0f 5 on cus­tomer service and 4.45 out of 5 on quality! As far as ship­ping, if ya want it within 3 days pay for the overnight! i did ground and it took a week

  7. Wally says:

    Let me first say I’ve been mon­it­oring this thread for months and its great.

    I wanted to add my per­spective on the use of JWH can­niboids. I’m an older, 60’s era fan of recre­ational drugs just recently retired, and have bene­fitted greatly from careful use of JWH-​​018. It has anal­gesic qual­ities that, for someone like me with arth­ritis and joint replace­ments, are a godsend.

    I’ve tried both the acetone bath (on an Inter­na­tional Oddities herb base) and the Everclear mini-​​shot. I use a vapo­rizor on the herbs and mix the Everclear with Gat­o­rade. They both have their pros and cons:

    Acetone Bathed herbs:
    Pros — You get high quicker and you can mod­erate the dose as you go. It also fades much quickly, making it pos­sible to get high in a smaller time window. It’s a more accept­able way to get high. Offer a friend a hit as you would with real cannabis.

    Cons — It’s hard to get the acetone out of the herbs prop­erly. My initial try I dried it for 6 hours, at about 55 deg., in an open window, but I still noticed some adverse side effects typical of acetone inhal­a­tion. I ended up warming it in the oven for 12 hour and the side effects went away, but it reduced the potency. In my future pre­par­a­tions I will use an elec­tric fan and stir the base for 10 – 12 hours, but avoid heating it.

    Everclear shot:
    Pros — Really provides a solid stone for an extended period of time. It’s easier to get an even blend and pre­dict­able dose.

    Cons — You really need to block out a 6 hour window and be careful to not try to do any­thing like operate machinery. It can come on slow and hard, sur­prising you, hours later. I took it on fairly empty stom­ache and it took 45 minutes for it to hit, vs. 5 minutes using a vapor­izer. It’s also less accept­able way socially. Telling someone you’ve mixed up a batch of high potency research chem­icals and offering them a shot to drink will usually get a neg­ative reaction.

    For both of these approaches, I must emphasize, as others have on this forum, that you need to be really careful in hand­ling and admin­is­tering this stuff. Its very potent and requires respect. The doses and ratios are crit­ical. You shouldn’y be sprink­ling this stuff in joints or tossing some on your houkah bowl. Get a scale, measure care­fully, and double check your cal­cu­la­tions before you partake.

    There are side effects, which I feel I am prob­ably more sens­itive to than younger members of the forum. As you get past 60 your body pro­cesses things less effect­ively, causing you to notice things more, so I may be a kind of canary in the coal mine. I notice that JWH puts more demands on your liver and meta­bolism, as does can­nabis, so avoiding addi­tional stress on these (such as drinking alcohol or caf­fiene before or during use) can reduce these effects.

    What I’ve noticed for 24 – 48 hours post-​​use are light headed­ness, flat­u­lance and head­ache. Nothing major, but climbing stairs too quickly can cause you to take a seat, and you may notice you need to drink more fluids. It’s nothing serious, but believe me, getting stoned one night and getting out on the golf course the next day can be a chal­lenge if you don’t hydrate and eat prop­erly. It’s com­par­able to to having 4 – 5 drinks of scotch for my mata­bolism. Your mileage may vary.

  8. x1 says:

    Absyn­thetics–
    I used the USPS pri­ority mail option with zero prob­lems. And it’s the cheapest option of the bunch.

    Wally–
    Ter­rific post. Espe­cially valu­able “elder” perspective.

    I am a mid-​​thirties fit male, and I don’t have quite the same reac­tion profile as you (Everclear method only).

    My onset starts earlier, typ­ic­ally 20 minutes in, and that’s always on a full stomach to boot. Then it is like riding slowly up a con­veyor belt as the stone ratchets tighter to a peak plateau at about the 75 minute mark, cruising at alti­tude for roughly 2 more hours before soft descent, but with con­sid­er­able stonage still apparent well beyond 4 hours.

    Any social taboo might be easily soothed away by the par­allel exper­i­ence of eating can­nabis. In the company of friends, is this really so dif­ferent from downing a feisty batch of hash brownies? I guess it depends on the exper­i­ences and expect­a­tions of one’s friends.

    But also I don’t think I can in good con­science offer this beverage without a thor­ough explic­a­tion of the molecules therein, which becomes a sig­ni­ficant edu­ca­tional achieve­ment. That is to say, it takes a while to really explain this material to people in a way that does it full justice. There’s a lot to grasp before exposure to JWH can be under­taken with the feeling that one truly has as much advance know­ledge on the matter as is avail­able to humanity at the moment. In fact, if I had simply skimmed the first few forum post­ings when I first stumbled on these chem­icals, I would have never touched the stuff, and would have left off believing JWH has been found defin­it­ively car­ci­no­genic, and is also respons­ible for AIDS, global warming, and world hunger. Such dis­in­form­a­tion in the world.

    I have not exper­i­enced the flat­u­lence of which you speak. Yikes! I have had some next-​​day light fog­gi­ness and slight head­ache, but not all the time. I must say for the amount of inebri­ation pos­sible at even mod­erate doses, the revenge symp­toms are exceed­ingly mild, sig­ni­fic­antly less of a nuis­ance than what one pays in the day-​​after dues of a good hard drunk.

    I have greatly enjoyed a cup of strong black coffee during or just after the up-​​slope of the exper­i­ence. In my system the strong caf­feine hit does not over-​​amplify the can­nabinoid. They play well together! I do piss a lot later…but that’s coffee for you. The neat bonus is that the can­nabinoid element is easily strong enough to over­ride the coffee. I have found it pos­sible to drink regular caf­fein­ated coffee deep into the evening and have abso­lutely no trouble falling asleep even as little as 2 hours later.

    About metabolism.…this is one of the most inter­esting things. The stuff really does seem to give you a workout on the inside, but not in any way that I can discern as overtly neg­ative. I seem to have dropped a few pounds in the weeks since first exper­i­menting, and it has given me a strong remin­is­cence of back many years ago, when I used to smoke dope far too often, and how all my pothead friends and I were like string beans…there seemed no limit to how much we could eat without gaining weight. I have been packing away more cal­ories than usual lately, espe­cially during those JWH munch­downs (massive cal­ories there!).…but fatness ain’t happening.

    I guess I should urge some caution and restraint at this point, since what I just wrote reads like a Dexatrim ad. These are my own per­sonal exper­i­ences, unique to my own bio­chem­istry, and I’d like to hear the unique exper­i­ences of other travelers.

    Ciao–

  9. Wally says:

    X1,

    Thanks for the compliment.

    Boy do I get what you are saying about the remin­is­cence. It seems the “body high” allows you to feel and stretch your muscles and joints in a way I haven’t felt since my days playing frisbee on campus in college.

    This ties into the anal­gesia I men­tioned before. I’ve been on numerous pre­scrip­tion meds (Vioxx, Celebrex) and JWH vari­ants are as good or better than them (and over the counter anti-​​inflammatories) and much more fun.

    The pre­scrip­tion meds men­tioned are no longer sold because of dangers to the heart. I’m sens­itive to the increased heart rate and anxiety that attend the use of can­niboids for the same reason and this is a reason for my caution with caffiene.

    I’m hoping to get the right blend of JWH chem­icals stored up while they are still legal so I have them for a fall-​​back med­ic­a­tion as aches and pains build up. There are few things better than a full workout, JWH and a hot-​​tub to fight old age.

    There is no doubt that, until big-​​pharma gets a way to make money on them, that there will be a heavy push to shut down syn­thetic can­niboids, just as can­nibis has been restricted.

    The good far out­weighs the risks for me, but thou­sands of people would benefit from more research and devel­op­ment in this area to make their use more com­monly avail­able to those that don’t want to dabble in chem­istry and track down the facts needed to do it safely. Your posts here provide a vital resource. Thanks.

  10. Willie says:

    TO: Wally & x1

    I have enjoyed reading both you and x1 posts and well-​​written chron­icle of events regarding your per­sonal exper­i­ences with JWH. Job well done!!!

  11. jim says:

    willie , I have been using 1 :2 ratio {1 gram to 2oz incense }, it is strong enough for me. now if I add a gram of jwh-​​073 to this could I add 2oz incense and it still be strong enough, or is the jwh-​​073 just an additive to get the sativa buzz, I am a lile bit con­fused, can you get me straight on this?

  12. jim says:

    joseph, my blood work left me still wondering…my enzymes were ok in my liver, but I had quit my psy­chiartractic medi­cine the same day I quit jwh-​​018 so I fee like one of them was the culprit.…probably the psy­chiartric medi­cine because the rash went away when I stopped taking it , I go for more blood work near the end of june so I will know more then, sorry I took so long to reply , but I just found out the results a couple of days ago, peace, jim

  13. Willie says:

    Hey Jim, regarding ratio, etc. I would rather let x1 or Absyn­thetics provide you guid­ance on this one. X1 has more exper­i­ence with blending 018 and 073 together. Jim, I feel more com­fort­able if x1 or someone else answer your ratio ques­tion. I don’t want to steer you wrong. I am glad you got nice effect.

  14. jim says:

    willie, thanks for the reply, maybe they will see my ques­tion and straighten me out peace

  15. ernie says:

    does pulse conatin jwh? i researched all over the net and i don’t think it does. please help! thanks

  16. x1 says:

    jim–

    I can’t give bul­let­proof advice on plant blends since I don’t make them and have no exper­i­ence using them. What I can tell you is that I use equal parts 018 and 073 in making liquid batches and it works per­fectly for me.

    I can tell you that the numbers/​ratios you listed should be fine, provided you have a reli­able tech­nique for evenly dis­trib­uting all 2 grams of JWH (018+073) through the 4 oz total plant material.

    What I cannot tell you is what your exper­i­ence will be, so you should do everyone a favor and report back after smoking. 073 is not quite as out­right potent as 018, and is a little bit dif­ferent on the CB receptors. It’s an over­sim­pli­fic­a­tion but I tend to think of 018 as more “sativa” and 073 as more “indica”. I expect that you will receive a more bal­anced and inter­esting high than with 018 alone. Equal parts of the JWH sib­lings is right for me in liquid form but you may have to tweak future batches in favor of one or the other to get the strength just right for your own system.

    ernie–
    I’d bet almost cer­tainly Pulse has JWH as at least one of its active con­stitu­ents. Perhaps it also has CP-​​something-​​something. God knows what else is in all these wacky blends, but to produce a cannabis-​​like reac­tion, it can only be one of a very small handful of par­tic­ular com­pounds, JWH-​​018 being easily the most potent and avail­able of the lot.

  17. Willie says:

    TO: ernie,

    I did a com­pre­hensive product review on Pulse a few months ago. My con­clu­sion is the same as x1 regarding the present of syn­thetic can­nabin­oids in Pulse. I also smoked Pulse and I can tell you that the listed herbal ingredi­ents will never get you the intensity or effect within 5 minutes of lighting up. If you are inter­ested in a copy of the review please email me at courther@​bellsouth.​net. I have the review in a Word document.

  18. Ethan says:

    I have been smoking spice blends out of water pipes and I am starting to feel some effects on my body, cough, trouble breathing, but its the same that would be from can­nibus. The only thing that I’m really con­cerned about is that all the pack­ages I got they all say “not fit for human con­sump­tion”. What are they able to get away with because of that? If anyone has any links or inform­a­tion, please post

  19. J says:

    Ethan,
    How long have you been smoking spice blends? Which blends to you smoke? The com­panies market these blends as incense, so they can sell it. Jwh-​​018 is not sched­uled drug yet, if it was they wouldn’t be able to sell it period. Hu-​​210 is a schedule 1 and it is one of the ingredi­ents in spice gold, that’s why u don’t see any US com­panies selling it, because if they do, they will be in serious trouble! When they make jwh-​​XXX schedule 1, you won’t see spice anymore

  20. Willie says:

    TO: Ethan,

    I am going to be brief and I am going to post a website address for know­ledge pur­poses only. The Federal Analog is very con­tro­ver­sial in the way it is written. It boils down to this. Any chem­ical or herb that mimics the effects of an illegal drug can be pro­sec­uted under this federal law unless the chem­ical or herb is not for human con­sump­tion. I have received plain old herb for example and it says “not for human con­sump­tion” in order to avoid any pos­sible lit­ig­a­tion under this new law. Here is the exact wording, “The Federal Analog Act, 21 U.S.C. § 813, is a con­tro­ver­sial section of the United States Con­trolled Sub­stances Act, allowing any chem­ical “sub­stan­tially similar” to an illegal drug (in Schedule I or II) to be treated as if it were also in Schedule I or II, but only if it is intended for human con­sump­tion. ” Here is the ref­er­ence website: http://​en​.wiki​pedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​F​e​d​e​r​a​l​_​A​n​a​l​o​g​_​Act

    I hope this helps clear things up with you and others.

  21. Jwndy says:

    Excel­lent Blog by the way.….…

    Well, I finally went and did it. I live in a state where the 018 is going to be illegal soon, so I bought mod­er­ately large quant­ities (10-​​25g of 018 and 073) from 3 sup­pliers, just to be on the safe side. My issue now is with storage. I have a real and valid concern in that cancer runs deep in my family, and I would really like to have X1’s con­coc­tion around should I ever need to combat the effects of chemo. I also have a friend that act­ively has cancer, and the only relief he gets is from can­nibis. So we both went in together and basic­ally bought a life time supply.

    The product sheets at several chem­ical com­panies say it can be stored for a year at –20C (or –4 F), but obvi­ously a year is not long enough. I also read in 2 places (one being X1’s early post) that if you disolve it in ethanol, and put it in the freezer, it will last indef­in­itely. Does anyone know for sure the best way to store it for 15 – 20 years?

    Since I won’t be able to replenish the product if I use the wrong process, I want to get this one right.

    Any help would be appreciated.

  22. lazarus says:

    Yes, this is an excel­lent thread. And Jwndy speaks dir­ectly to some of my thoughts about can­nabi­mi­metic RCs.
    The wide-​​ranging medical bene­fits of can­nabin­oids are indis­put­able, but next-​​to-​​nothing is known (shared?) regarding the pos­sible downside(s) — if any — of the syn­thetics. Perhaps what I should more cor­rectly say is, the inform­a­tion that can be found is so tech­nical it is largely inde­cipher­able to the layperson. My interest is medical/​therapeutic as well, but I am no chemist. It is because of my con­cerns about tox­icity that I started reading here.
    The simple truth is, being RCs — much of the research inform­a­tion is coming from, well, the indi­vidual “researchers” that are talking on blue­light, Drugs-​​Forum, etc. Guinea pigs though they may be, per­sonal exper­i­ence is proving to be key here.

    As far as long-​​term storage is con­cerned — in the few places where I have seen it dis­cussed, those who “seem” to have some expertise in the chem­ical field believe these are rel­at­ively stable com­pounds and are best stored in their “ori­ginal” (dry) state.
    But again — these are RCs, so only time. research and per­sonal exper­i­ence will tell for sure.

    There is tre­mendous promise here and it goes far beyond 018. It is truly sad our ethically-​​challenged legis­lators are so blind.

  23. Mr Nice Guy says:

    a lot of info avail­able at legal high guides online.

  24. JIM says:

    I infuse 15 grams of my secret blend with 1 gram of JWH-​​018. To me, this is the only way. No bad exper­i­ences, except for the first time. Didn’t expect such a powerful high. I do get heart­burn but I think thats my blend. What do you think of my ratio?

  25. Jwndy says:

    I spent several hours look at legal high guides, but never saw any dis­cus­sion about dif­fernet ways to store this par­tic­ular sub­stance, except for several suc­cessful exper­i­ences with short term storage like, “stored in bag in dark closet for 3 months, and everything was OK” etc.

    I did find the fol­lowing state­ment, which hits a little bit on the type of chem­ical dis­cus­sion I am looking for:

    “Indole com­pounds degrade by oxid­a­tion giving yellow and brown products. The more impurity results in intensity of the brown color and becoming a gummy like state (due to melting point suppression)”

    What I would like is for someone with some know­ledge of chem­istry to give me their opinion on the fol­lowing two sup­pos­i­tions (purely made up by me)

    1. Since Oxid­a­tion is the enemy of JWH-​​018, then storage in lots of little small glass vials (with no empty space between the powder and the cap/​stopper to mim­imize exposure to air) in your everyday stand-​​alone freezer would work. You would pull out indi­vidual vials when you need them, leaving the others undisturbed.

    OR

    2. By melting the JWH in Ethanol, you elim­inate its ability to oxidize because no air can get to the chem­ical once it is in liquid form. Putting the ethanol in the freezer is an added bonus that retards chem­ical processes.

    I would love to know which of the above state­ments might be true (if either), and which would give me the highest chance of success for decades-​​long storage.

    Thanks for the response.

  26. Ethan says:

    Thanks for all who com­mented, that really cleared up some ques­tions that I had. An edu­cated con­sumer is the best. I’ve been buring spice gold, but im thinking about making my own blend and just using the com­pound itself. Its been about 2 weeks of regular use, 2wice a day. Its nice to know that its just a law, and not a loop­hole that they can use to get around selling a safe product.

  27. x1 says:

    Jwndy–

    Sorry to see that you are not getting answers. You’d think an expert chemist would have chimed in by now!

    This is all pretty new ter­ritory. We don’t often acquire novel medi­cinal powders and then seek to derive a method of pre­serving them for decades.

    I must admit I don’t have con­fid­ence in the raw crystal to stay stable indef­in­itely, even at deep freeze.

    I have more con­fid­ence in long-​​term sus­pended anim­a­tion via high-​​proof ethyl alcohol. That con­fid­ence is based on the use of ethyl alcohol as a cham­pion pre­ser­vative for ento­mo­lo­gical col­lec­tions, plankton spe­ci­mens, and so forth. Will a syn­thetic organic com­pound like a JWH-​​xxx sit, happily stable, for years and years, dis­solved in ethanol solu­tion, the same as a large array of organic molecules in the form of an ant, or a moth larva, or a zooplankton? I can’t see a reason why not. If there is a good reason, I hope someone will spill it, ASAP!

    .…

    Mean­while, I have finally had a chance to try that ReChemz batch I was worried about, based on the dimin­ished potency issues exper­i­enced by Absyn­thetics and others.

    Turns out, the stuff is just fine. Lucky I cooled off and decided not to toss it. Never did get a clear handle on what the ReChemz “quality control meas­ures” are, exactly, but despite my testy exchange with “Tommy” of ReChemz a few days back, I can still recom­mend ReChemz for USA cit­izens. Sorry that others have had some issues, but my per­sonal exper­i­ence has been of 100% quality material and ulti­mately that’s all I can speak to. I’ve also received addi­tional quality material from Sacra, so it looks like USA folks have at least two good options.

    Cheers

  28. Willie says:

    TO: lazarus,

    Well said!!

  29. Amber says:

    I am on pro­ba­tion and just simply can not smoke Canibus, that is if a value my freedom. So being a pot head I obvi­ously started to go just a little batty. And needed some­thing help me keep my sanity.

    That was when I heard about this product by the name of K2, That was going to get me high like pot. And I had to think oh my god what a wonder cre­ation.…. if it actu­ally works

    So far i have only smoke this “herb” about ten time and my results have been dif­ferent every time. Prob­ably because i have smoked dif­ferent amounts the first every time.

    What I have dis­covered is this, less is more. The one time I smoke this herb like it was Canibus (smoking a whole fatty) I had a ter­rible effect, extremely high blood pres­sure, nausea, and two physiolo­gical dis­crep­ancy such as anxiety, and some mild para­noia. So need­less to say it was really kinda scary

    But the times I have only indulged is a small amount of this product I have really enjoyed it, and could compare the “high” to that of Canibus. Even though my buzz is always sig­ni­fic­antly shorter.

    I guess all I’m really trying to say is have fun, and enjoy your­self, but please be careful and know your lim­it­a­tions. And I’m not writing this to scare anyone, just because I had a problem doesn’t mean you will. After all I’m just one person out of millions.

  30. Jwndy says:

    I can back up X1’s results on ReChemz and Sacra. I also got favor­able results from JWH018supplier. After much research, those were the 3 sources I picked. I even spoke with Alec at REChemz, and he was very fam­ilier with the pro­gres­sion toward ille­gailty in my state (and all states). I would have tried buythemg, but their regis­tra­tion was closed (which is not the case now as I under­stand it).

    I also posed my long-​​term storage ques­tion to the com­panies dir­ectly, but only Alec actu­ally checked and got back to me. His answer was it would last for a year at room tem­per­ature. Unless a sup­plier actu­ally put me in touch with a staff chemist, I have to take a little bit of what they would say with a grain of salt.……after all, what would be their incentive to teach me how to store it? ehh?

    Even with all that it is still buyer beware.

    Thanks for everyone’s input on the storage ques­tion though. I am still holding out for someone that might can speak the lan­guage of molecules to help me out.

  31. Anynymous says:

    Ive been using K2 blonde every day for ovr a week now and never exper­i­enced any side efects. I never got nausea, my heart rate was never accel­er­ated and i never mixed it with any other drugs. I took care of an entire bag in one day and got a head­ache but thats it. This dosnt show long term health effects but it shows what happened with fre­quent use of over a week. Smoking any­thing is bad obvi­ously but i havn’t exper­i­enced any­thing to be really con­cerned about. It did affect my depth per­cep­tion pretty bad after doing the whole 1gram bag, so i never drove. In large quant­ities it is cer­tainly dan­gerous to drive on but a couple bowls is no problem. To be safe dont even drive on a little bit of any­thing. Im pretty sure alot of the blends contain passion flower which might enhance the syn­thetic can­nabin­oids because of the mAOIs. I think(not entirely sure) i detected some catnip, hops, mugwort,lions tail,skull cap and indian warrior. All these herbs have psy­cho­active effects of their own. Ive also heard that the man­u­fac­turers of these pot­pourris fill up tubs of these herbs and soak them down with the JWH chemicals.

  32. lazarus says:

    Jwndy — 

    You might give some thought to starting a thread in one or all of the above men­tioned can­nabi­mi­metic RC forums and pose the storage ques­tion to them for their con­sid­er­a­tion. While the vast majority of the posters are obvi­ously recre­ational exper­i­menters, it appears there are a few lurking about who are more serious about the “research” side of this and seem to have a bit of chem­istry back­ground as well. I surely know some of their talk about molecules is way over my head.

    One ques­tion that has come to my mind — ethanol is widely used to pre­cip­itate RNA and DNA. Does that mean it weakens chem­ical bonds or pre­serves them? You’d think someone would know. Or does it depend purely upon the chem­ical com­pound itself?

    The greatest threats to the sta­bility of these RCs are said to be oxygen, mois­ture, heat and sun­light. I know com­mer­cially avail­able bottled ethanol is 190 proof — but there’s still water in the alcohol. Is it enough to be a det­ri­ment to potency?

    So many ques­tions. You’d think some­body out there could help to give a defin­itive answer. I do think a compact medical freezer would be a sound invest­ment however. They will hold the tem­per­ature in the recom­mended –20 range, are lock­able and can be found for around $200.

  33. pooh says:

    got my replace­ment from ReChemz. happy to report sucess. sacra, also sucess, dif­ferent stuff. not sure what to make of the 200 i got from sacra. stuff is pink and gives off a pretty pun­geant smoke when heated. not a whole lot in the way of CB activity, but seems to roll off the edge of 018. i’m going to relegate this one to a mix in an herbal spray. happy researching ppl!

  34. Travis says:

    First of all I’m glad I found a public forum that’s had so many hits on this subject. I’ve been smoking these jwh18 laced blends for months now; black mamba, ultra spice, spice green,tasty spice, magic spice, rebel spice ultra etc and really enjoyed em for the most part until last night. I’ve heard of adverse effects but without any legit­imate research I didn’t pay much atten­tion too it. After work I smoked one good sized bowl with a friend. Almost an every day thing. He felt fine but soon my heart rate shot over 100bpm( father is an m.d. So bp cuffs are laying around every­where) and became very isol­ated in thought. This turned to what i know as a bad trip( I exper­i­mented with shrooms and LSD in high school and recently 2cb, so it’s nothing new). Fear came into the equa­tion so I then though I was goin to die etc.…. All the while my friend who smoked this bowl with me is just fine; shrubbed out as we’d say.… And I then proceed to vomiting for almost a minute or two straight. Here’s the deal; this product is intended to be sold as an incense so liabity is out the door and the FDA isn’t involved. If you need to get messed up get drunk or smoke real weed. Not that I’m con­doning those sub­stances, just that we at least know the effects. Like I said. My buddy has smoked it for months and never exper­i­enced any effect like that but every­ones chem­ical makeup differs from one another. I’d stay away from such spices. And if your won­dering which products include jwh18. It’s all of them. Average damiana isn’t that intense

  35. x1 says:

    pooh–

    Inter­esting about the JWH-​​200. Yes, sacra lists it as a “light pink solid”. Weird!

    Reading up on it I get the gist that 200 takes a bit more material than 018 to start giving the CBs a real ride.

  36. Jwndy says:

    I have posted a fairly detailed storage ques­tion at drugs forum. I haven’t gotten any hits yet. You can see it in the “new posts” section on the right. I may have made a mistake because I added my ques­tion about the powder to a thread about the long-​​term storage of blend (which was about 6 mo old). If I don’t get any hits, then I will repost in a more appro­priate forum.

    I didn’t see the other RC forums that lazarus was talking about. I’ve read this whole blog, but maybe I missed them. If anyone knows of a good blog where the posts indicate a high level of serious, intel­li­gent, lab-​​type exper­i­ment­a­tion is going on, let me know, and I will post there too. I will be sure to report what I find here.

    Regarding the Sacra comment from pooh — I recently received some new 018 and 073 from there, and they were both tan (or more tan than pink) and they were exactly the same color. I haven’t tried this batch yet. Can you elab­orate on your com­ments on the quality? I would also like to know if X1 got the same color product from Sacra, and if he/​she got the same quality results as from RezChem. I’ve bought several med-​​sized batches, and this is the first tan ones I’ve gotten. Everthing else was almost pure white for 018 and a slight yellow tinge to 073.

  37. Berny says:

    try JWH018Supplier.. Pros –almost pure white fine powder. Nice foil package. Check the price– cheap! 1 to 2 mg on a chunk of Damiana and you will fly away. Cons-​​be careful and don’t overdo unless you can handle much more than the norm.

  38. JOE says:

    I just wanted to update everyone on my exper­i­ence with research­chem­icalz. After reading others recent exper­i­ences with research­chem­icalz jwh 018 I decided there was a good chance that I got a bad batch as well. I called them to request a refund and they sent me a free replace­ment gram, even though my ori­ginal order was placed over 5 weeks prior. I mixed 250mg into 100ml of everclear and tried out 3.5 ml…wow! I got a way more intense high than what I had with my 8-​​10ml tests from the first gram and it was ridicu­lously long lasting, in fact I was almost wishing it would go away after a few hours. Abso­lutely nothing subtle about it this time! Now I have to wonder what the first gram I got really was, just 018 cut with some­thing or some­thing entirely dif­ferent all together. Like I men­tioned earlier there is no doubt it worked very well in low doses when smoked, but when taken orally it took much more than it should have to exper­i­ence any effects…I feel like the high was slightly dif­ferent as well, although I can’t quite put my finger on the spe­cific differences.

  39. Trigger says:

    Hey everyone. I’ve been smoking various blends for a couple months now and so far my favorite has been Spike Diamond, it seems to be the most potent and cost effective. I am however, con­cerned about some­thing which hasn’t been prop­erly addressed in this thread, the pres­ence of the two benzene rings aka naph­thalene. Now I’m no chemist, and I’ve heard because of the struc­ture of the entire com­pound, JWH, that it might be decom­posed or w/​e dif­fer­ently than a lone naph­thalene com­pound would. But i was slightly dis­turbed at reading the health effects of naph­thalene exposure (fatigue, loss of appetite, diarrhea) because i have exper­i­enced these at times from the JWH. When I use it in the recom­mended dosages but say 5 times a day, I’ll some­times wake up the next day with an odd feeling in my stomach, like the pH is 1 point too high or too low. I ordered some JWH-​​250 because it doesnt have the naph­thalene, but it seems to be one of the least popular ones (I guess it doesnt get u as high) Anyone here use 250 reg­u­larly? I’ll post another message when it gets here and i’ve sampled it enough to note the side effects. Thanks

  40. x1 says:

    Jwndy–

    Yes, my sacra batches were tan. My first 018 from them was a little more tan than the 073. My second 018 was about equal in tan shade to the 073.

    I have several bottles of 018073 Everclear 190 mixture in the fridge. They all have slightly dif­ferent off-​​clear hues. And I mean SLIGHT. If I place the bottles out on a coun­tertop in regular ambient light, they appear “clear”, but in the harsh fridge light, and sitting side by side, the slight col­or­a­tions and vari­ances are easily noticeable.

    The buythemg batch is the slightest pale yellow.

    The sacra batches are very very slight tan.

    One rechemz batch is very very slight pink/​orange.

    And a more recent rechemz batch has almost no coloration.

    If col­or­a­tion equals slight impurity, then the “winner” on purity is research­chem­icalz. I recall this powder was the whitest and finest grained I’ve received. The con­sist­ency was almost like flour or baby powder, and as I’ve noted before, it dis­solved very quickly in the Everclear.

    This is the same batch that I was worried about after the dimin­ished potency reports of Absyn­thetics and others, and over which Tommy from ReChemz and I had the little tiff, many posts up.

    Despite that speed­bump, this stuff is ace. I am cer­tainly their cus­tomer once more.

    Color vari­ances aside, I can say with cer­tainty after con­sid­er­able testing that every single one of these liquid batches is con­sistent in its beha­vior. I can pull 3 mL out of any bottle and know exactly what to expect, which is pretty cool.

    Joe–
    “Wow!” is right. Thank good­ness you didn’t start back up at 8 mL. If the potency is what is should be out of the gate, 4 mL is prob­ably about the line where after that it’s like, what’s the point? Can you imagine the con­sequences of a dose over double what you took? You’d prob­ably still be skronked.

  41. Erod says:

    EVERYONE IS AN EXPERT ON EVERTHING ABOUT JWHXXX, BUT IS THEIR ANYONEANYONE-​​ANYONE THAT CAN TELL ME HOW LONG THIS STUFF STAYS IN YOUR SYSTEM, please.

  42. Lacy Amyx says:

    What is a normal drug test it said on this page
    No, it won’t show up on a normal drug test.

    The only sim­il­ar­ities between this and THC are the receptors they both bind to.

  43. syrup1 says:

    I am a state employee, and my wife is in the medical field and cannot use can­nabis. I just pur­chased some 18 from a website with the same name as 018 & supply. I am looking for depend­able website to descretely buy from. Can x1 send me a few sites to my email syrup1​@​butterworth.​tc I like your idea of a mix in E It appears to be the most accurate I’ve seen on here so far. My wife has never has any can­nabis and this is as close as I can get for her. I had some pretty wicked sh#$ when I was young and growing up. I tried a “pinner” of Afgh­anistan with 3 other guys and dont remember any­thing until the next morning, For some reason I was the life of the party that night and I dont know why. I’m NOT looking for that kinda fun. Just a good buzz and a nice exper­i­ence for her and I. I have agram of 18 coming, cant wait. What would be the ulti­mate can­nabis like buzz-​​mix?

  44. Jwndy says:

    Erod — 

    The author of this blog men­tioned some tests at the intro to the blog (I believe it was some of the rat tests) that indic­ated that it is purged from your system very quickly (i.e. within hours).

    The only thing I know to counter that is that things that are fat soluble tend to get into your fat cells and take a while to com­pletely meta­bolize (i.e. like THC). However, I have no idea as to whether this applies to JWH or not.

    I would tend to stick with the lab results men­tioned above (way above).……in fact so far above that the author might want to con­sider starting a “page 2″ of this blog — he already hit some some band­width limits a week or so ago (hint).

    This, coupled with the fact that they don’t really have any lab detec­tion methods for this yet (but they are working on them), means that you are prob­ably safe for now.

  45. Erod says:

    thank you Jwandy,
    Does any body out there know if this stuff sticks to your fat like thc, or is it dif­ferent and out of your system within a couple of days?

  46. lazarus says:

    Jwndy — 

    Some of the folks on this forum sound rather serious.

    http://​www​.blue​light​.ru/​v​b​/​f​o​r​u​m​d​i​s​p​l​a​y​.​p​h​p​?​f​=​155

    Maybe your ques­tion would spark some edu­cated dis­cus­sion over there.

  47. x1 says:

    syrup1–

    I don’t need to email you any­thing. All the inform­a­tion on sources and methods that you need can already be found in the thread com­ments right here on this page…you need only read through care­fully. So good luck!

    —–

    Regarding naph­thalene, car­ci­no­gen­i­city, etc. :

    [WARNING: Clumsy ama­teurish explic­a­tion ahead!]

    If you look at a typical sketch of the JWH-​​018 molecule, you’ll see it has basic­ally two large “parts” on either side of the “O” in the middle.

    On one side you have a hexagon and a pentagon attached together with what looks like an angled tail jutting off the bottom “N”. This side of the molecule is the “indole” part.

    On the other side you have two hexagons attached together. This is the “naph­thalene” part.

    Roughly 2 years worth of dis­cus­sion about JWH on the intar­webz have res­ulted in there being some concern that the “naph­thalene” part of the molecule could be meta­bol­ized into a highly reactive and poten­tially car­ci­no­genic “epoxide”.…which would be bad.

    However, it is unclear whether the naph­thalene as it appears as an attached com­ponent in JWH would produce the same epox­ides as unat­tached naphthalene.

    There has also been concern expressed that SMOKING this chem­ical could cause the naph­thalene portion to essen­tially snap off of the rest of the molecule and exist inside of you as “free” naph­thalene, in which case it would be more likely to meta­bolize into the nasty epoxide.

    Why smoking? Here’s another fancy word: “pyro­lysis”. This is a very serious-​​sounding word for the chem­ical reac­tion that takes place during com­bus­tion. If you zap JWH with enough direct heat (for instance when torching it with a lighter), some of what you inhale may be “broken” JWH, and you would basic­ally be intro­du­cing rogue naph­thalene into your system.

    So you see the evident risk. Now, there is a guy over on blue­light with a post called “Thoughts On JWH-​​18 Car­ci­no­gen­i­city” who, by way of some zany chem­istry ana­lysis, makes the con­clu­sion that a 2.5 mg dose of JWH-​​018 might intro­duce as much naph­thalene into your system as smoking 2 unfiltered cigarettes.

    That might seem rel­at­ively mild…but as we all know cigar­ettes are rather nasty things, and UNFILTERED cigar­ettes are just really awful. So if you’re the kind who likes to smoke JWH off a direct flame often.…you might want to pause and con­sider alternate methods of inges­tion. One recent post above was from a guy who men­tioned smoking JWH 5 times a day, and feeling rather bad from it. I think if I smoked half a pack of unfiltered Camels a day I’d prob­ably feel like shit, too.

    I am not clear whether “vaping”, as opposed to torching, might be safer in this regard.

    Also I am not clear whether we are mostly out of the woods with the oral inges­tion (liquid, Everclear) method. As I under­stand it there is still some risk that the naph­thalene com­ponent might still meta­bolize down to some­thing car­ci­no­genic. BUT it does seem to make sense that the risk in this dir­ec­tion is sig­ni­fic­antly less than smoking.

    Cheers

  48. ernie says:

    like someone men­tioned earlier, how long does jwh stay in your system? no one seems to know. thanks

  49. jay bleezy says:

    yah, i would realy like to know whether or not spice is water or fat soluble.

  50. Erod says:

    I mean if I’m inter­preting this cor­rectly, that which was stated way up there in the begging of this whole deal says this stuff has a half-​​life of a couple hours. I’m int­rested in Black mamba, if that’s tge case this stuff is out the system com­pletely in maybe a day. Is there anyone out there with some con­crete know­ledge, maybe who works in the testing field or some­thing. Thanks for all the info sofar.

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