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JWH-018 Toxicology

By John Clarke

ToxicSince my last post about the spice behind Spice (and other smoking mix­tures such as Smoke, Serenity Now, K2, Sence, etc), it has been brought to my atten­tion that some initial tox­ic­o­logy testing has been done on the syn­thetic can­nabinoid JWH-​​018. Before we get down to the details however, here’s some pretty weird back­ground inform­a­tion — the sponsor and pro­vider of these studies wishes to remain anonymous! Unfor­tu­nately, this makes the whole thing a lot less cred­ible, but since this is the only inform­a­tion we have right now, let’s hope someone else can verify these things at a later date. So far, one pro­fessor (who also wishes to remain anonymous) thinks these are real, but as of yet, no one is willing to put their name down on any kind of formal state­ment. If you, or anyone you know, has the rel­evant expertise to look over these studies, please drop me a line!

(Quick Update — A lot of people have been dis­cussing and linking to this post, but there remains some sus­pi­cion that I have some­thing to gain by saying the JWH-​​018 isn’t that harmful. Firstly, JWH-​​018 is now illegal in the UK. Secondly, as I men­tioned just above this, if I have got any­thing wrong, please pick me up on it! If it turns out my ana­lysis of the data is incor­rect, I will correct it!)

Feel free to invent your own con­spiracy the­ories, but for now, let’s take a look at the data. You can down­load the PDF doc­u­ments in this Zip file [2.04 MB]

CYP450 Inhibition Assay

This first assay looks at the effect of a drug on spe­cific enzymes in your liver. These Cyto­chrome P450 enzymes are respons­ible for meta­bol­ising the vast majority of drugs you might put in your body, so if you’ve got too much of one drug in your system (ie paracetamol/​acetaminophen), then other drugs that are also meta­bol­ised by these enzymes (ie alcohol) may compete for these enzymes and so hang around in your system for longer. As you can imagine, it’s important to under­stand how one drug may affect the meta­bolism of another, in case of any dis­as­terous drug-​​drug interactions.

Results: JWH-​​018 will prob­ably interact with the meta­bolism of other drugs, so more in vivo work is necessary.

hERG Binding Assay

hERG stands for human Ether-​​à-​​go-​​go Related Gene. This gene codes for a par­tic­ular type of potassium channel found on heart tissue. This channel pumps potassium ions out of the heart muscle cells and are crit­ical in coördin­ating the heart’s elec­trical activity. Unfor­tu­nately, these chan­nels are a prime target for drugs to bind to, dis­rupting their func­tion. This can lead to “Long QT Syn­drome”, asso­ci­ated with fainting and can lead to sudden death, so you can see why these kinds of tests are important. Here’s a typical ECG recording showing what’s called the “QT interval” shown in blue, which lasts for longer than it should do if these chan­nels are disrupted.

QT Interval

Results: JWH-​​018 does not inter­fere with these chan­nels. That’s a good thing.

Cytotoxicity Assay

This simple test essen­tially looks at how many cells die when you perfuse them with a drug. The more cells that die, the more toxic the drug.

Results: JWH-​​018 is not cyto­toxic at low concentrations.

GreenScreen HC Genotoxicity Assay

This assay looks at how much a drug will inter­fere with our DNA. Typ­ic­ally, any­thing that damages DNA is bad news, being poten­tially car­ci­no­genic, making the rationale behind this test glar­ingly obvious. This test was also per­formed in the pres­ence of a frac­tion taken from liver cells, which will break down the drug. This not only checks if the drug will damage DNA, but also its break­down products.

Results: JWH-​​018 does not damage DNA, so shouldn’t give you cancer.

Rat Repeat Toxicity Assay

Guess what happens in this exper­i­ment. A number of ren­agade lab rats looking for a bad time are rounded up and prom­ised free drugs (kind of like Pleasure Island from Pinoc­chio; that shit was scary!). The rats are then dosed up and observed. Ini­tially, they appear leth­argic (read: totally baked) but a few of them died at higher doses. This appears to be down to prob­lems breathing rather than organ tox­icity, but only affected the male rats, who appeared more sens­itive to the com­pound. The drug didn’t appear to accu­mu­late in their systems either, but they did lose some weight, prob­ably because they couldn’t be arsed to eat. JWH-​​018 showed a huge potency and was found to be tachy­phylactic (my new favourite word — it means that more of a drug is required to reach the same state fol­lowing an initial dosage).

Results: According to FDA guidelines, the human equi­valent dose is 0.016 mg/​kg but it should be tested in other species before this can be seen as reliable!

Rat Pharmacokinetics

Data is col­lected on a number of dif­ferent “phar­ma­cokin­etic” aspects of the drug, such as how it is absorbed, dis­trib­uted throughout the body, meta­bol­ised and excreted, which can help with the design of future clin­ical trials.

Results: JWH-​​018 is dis­trib­uted well throughout the rat’s tissues. Meta­bolism and excre­tion are normal, with a plasma half-​​life of approx­im­ately 2 hours

Summary

Well, from the looks of these tests, JWH-​​018 seems to be pretty safe, but unless you want to piss off Ben Gol­dacre, it would be wise not to rely on this “test tube data” entirely. Also, like I said before, we don’t know where this data has come from, clouding the issue even further.

Feel free to ask any ques­tions in the comments.

Big thanks to Alfa @ Drugs​-Forum​.com for letting me know about these studies. You can read all about JWH-​​018 on their Drugs Wiki.

COM­MENTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW CLOSED. YOU CAN CON­TINUE DIS­CUSSING SYN­THETIC CAN­NABIN­OIDS HERE OR INDI­VIDUAL SMOKING MIX­TURES HERE.

444 Responses to JWH-018 Toxicology

  1. J says:

    sorry to hear that man.. your better off using fusion!!!!

  2. x1 says:

    Oliver are you saying you chose to try this for the first time while at work? I don’t think that would be such fun.

    The first time I did it was exactly like the first time I ever smoked MJ…a little bit sur­prising and overwhelming.…but ulti­mately a very classic analog exper­i­ence, com­plete with fero­cious snack munch­down at about the 2.5 hour stage.

    Yeah, I would say if the mind can’t be calmed, and the body is not in a recre­ational place or state.…maybe not ideal set/​setting for initial discovery.

  3. bob says:

    I’m trying to locate a legit­imate online source of jwh-​​018 in the US but it is proving extremely dif­fi­cult since none of the dis­cus­sion forums I have come across allow vendor dis­cus­sion. I under­stand that is the case for this site as well, but could someone at least provide me some hints/​tips on how to find and select a reli­able source that isn’t going to simply take my payment and dis­ap­pear, or worse send me some other dan­gerous chem­ical that isn’t in fact jwh-​​018? I tried one of these herbal blends with jwh-​​018 awhile ago and really enjoyed the high it pro­duced but would prefer to avoid smoking it and am inter­ested in trying the method dis­cussed here involving dis­solving it in everclear. Thanks!

  4. Kush Spice says:

    It doesn’t seem by the report that it is any more toxic than good old MJ which pretty mild as far as all the toxic crap in the world that we eat and breathe everyday.

  5. x1 says:

    bob:

    If you are looking for a reli­able US source for certain research­chem­icalz then make sure you do a good, spe­cific google search and hope­fully you will stumble upon a site that does indeed offer such research­chem­icalz in the US. I can’t imagine it would be too hard to find the research­chem­icalz you seek if you simply do the proper search for whatever research­chem­icalz you are looking for.

    If you are searching a reli­able source that may not be US based but is still reli­able, then once again I encourage you to do a proper google search, and hope­fully you will find a place that allows you to buythemg . Surely there is at least one inter­na­tional pro­vider that would let people buythemg if they are curious.

    Good luck

  6. OliverKlohzoff says:

    LOL X1, I got research­chem­icalz too, should come up in a google search.

    And yes I was at work but it’s my own place of busi­ness, I own it. Sat­urday after­noons are pretty much dead, nothing going on. I thought it would be a good time to give it a try. I tried even leaning back and closing my eyes, just couldn’t make myself relax, really sends your mind into over­drive. Does it do that to you too ?

    I wouldn’t mind trying it again except for the fact that it lasts so damn long. For me, the full affects took an hour to hit and lasted 3 – 4 hours.

  7. x1 says:

    Oliver:

    No, I don’t get over­drive brain. I get ganja-​​esque, well-​​toasted brain. I mean, it’s a perfect home run for my physiology.

    Perhaps I can attempt some totally unscientific obser­va­tion and spec­u­la­tion with regard to your experience.

    You men­tioned Moun­tain Dew as your drink medium. Half a cup? Was it regular Mt Dew, i.e. not diet or any other variant? I believe Mt Dew is heavily caf­fein­ated. Even a little bit might get a brain that has been sens­it­ized by new, novel chem­ical agents racing a bit. Not to mention, quite frankly Mt Dew has a bunch of other crap in it, most of it not so good.

    You might con­sider going with straight 100% fruit juice next time.

    Next unscientific spec­u­la­tion: ratio. You tilted more heavily to the 073, 2:1. Perhaps you exper­i­enced a JWH clash. Perhaps the 018 and its sativa-​​like brain high was fighting for trac­tion against the heavier sat­ur­a­tion of the indica-​​like 073 body high. Perhaps, in your par­tic­ular neuro-​​pipes, 018 likes more of a fair fight, and protests loudly when out­numbered by 073.

    You might think this a bizarre speculation…but I was struck by your comment about getting hungry so soon, within 45 minutes of onset. That doesn’t sit well. It makes me think that in YOUR system, 073 hits harder and causes a bit of thrashing. I am gen­er­ally delin­eating 073 as much heavier on the body, including with respect to appetite.

    Of course it’s pos­sible you didn’t eat a full, well-​​balanced meal beforehand…which would be a no-​​no. Have a nice bit of pasta and veg at least an hour before liftoff.

    You might con­sider a small test 5050 sub-​​batch con­sisting of 125mg 018 and 125mg 073 dis­solved in 100mL Everclear. Sounds like you have enough of all mater­ials left over to give it a go. It would be a shame not to know if ratio really is the key.

    There’s the pos­sib­ility, too, that you took what might be con­sidered a not-​​quite-​​breakthrough dose…meaning you took just enough to agitate, but not quite enough to push all the way over the hill to full, toasty burn, at which point the mind leaves off with its wor­rying and just enjoys the ride.

    For me, there is a bit of mental fid­geting, and also increase in body heat, during that first 45-​​minute upslope…but all of that burns off in the grip of the full bake and it’s a good 3+ hours of kite-​​flying after that.

    So, at the end of ana­lysis, you did accu­mu­late a little batch of vari­ables dif­ferent from my method and prac­tice. Com­pared to me, you had:

    1. Dif­ferent 018 – 073 ratio (yours was 2:1, 073 to 018.…mine was 1:1)
    2. Higher Everclear-​​to-​​JWH ratio in liquid JWH pre­par­a­tion
    3. Lower initial test dosage (3mg into your system, if I figured right, vs. 5mg for my first test)
    4. Caf­feine and funky chem­ical soda as drink sub­strate (vs. my organic fruit juice)
    5. Work/​business setting, replete with customer

    And prob­ably other dif­fer­ences that I can’t think of. Also I tend only to test at night, and kill most lights and noises. If you’re prone to get agit­ated by external stimuli, that might be another adjust­ment to consider.

    Shame if you went through all this research and money and don’t find the right balance. But it’s sup­posed to be fun. No point in doing this if cost exceeds benefit. Do report back if you take another plunge.

  8. justjwh says:

    JWH-​​018 will not cause a pos­itive urine test for THC, I have tested this.

  9. J says:

    I felt its neces­sary for someone to talk about what to do in case of an over­dose. A while back, I had a bad panic attack from using too much. From my exper­i­ence the first thing I did was drink plenty of water. If you are driving a car try to find a close friend or rel­itive close by. You don’t want to drive too far. Try to min­imize your driving. It is very dan­ger­ious to drive if you OD on this stuff. Try not to panic as your heart rate will prolly go up. Your body temp will prolly drop and you’l need a blanket to keep warm. Per­son­ally I drank some milk and drank a fruit smooothy. You want to get some food in your stomach I think. This was just my exper­i­ence. I’m not telling anywone to do what I did. I’m just explaining what helped me over­come my adverse exper­i­ence. Because most people take this stuff litely. I think its very important to educate people on how to prepare and pos­sible options on what to do in an over­dose situ­ation. Because a person in the wrong place at the wrong time on an OD of this could easily die! If an elderly person OD’s on this stuff they could die from a heart attack from rapid heart rate. This stuff is no joke!

  10. x1 says:

    I pity the elderly person who has decided, stu­pidly, to smoke an unmeas­ured amount of any strange chemical.

    BTW, elderly people can also have a heart attack from having sex. And many other things.

    Bottom line: PRE­CISELY MEASURE YOUR DOSE, whether smoking or diluting in a solvent. If you cannot obtain or afford the highly sens­itive meas­uring device needed to measure a crys­tal­line solid at the single mil­li­gram level, then please STRONGLY CON­SIDER the non-​​smoking, liquid dilu­tion method found in this thread.

    Keep it under 10 mg for starters. Vir­tu­ally every single panic attack horror story on the internet is from some yokel who decided to “guess­timate” their intake, with their eye­balls. You can’t guess­timate mil­li­grams of fine grain powder with your eye­balls. FAIL. BAD FAIL. Don’t be stupid.

  11. J says:

    X1 I’m talking about smok­able products like spice. The jwh is already meas­ured and you can OD on this!

  12. x1 says:

    You weren’t spe­cific. And since this is a JWH thread, and not a Spice thread, nat­ur­ally I assumed.… There wasn’t any­thing in your post that made it clear you were talking about OD’ing on an herbal blend. How did you manage to do that, by the way?

    Anyway, you can OD on any­thing. Caffeine…oxygen.…mustard. Stop being hys­ter­ical. The best advice you gave was for people to lie down and have some juice.

    J, you need to lie down and have some juice. Some­times the ominous tone of your posts, and the con­stant harping on the “dark side” of JWH, (as opposed to Fusion, which is won­derful and mira­cu­lous and has no neg­at­ives, right?), makes it sound like you are suf­fering from chronic Spice panic attack flashbacks.

    Lie down. Have some juice.

    This is prob­ably the main reason why people shouldn’t touch any blend crap anyway. Just buy the raw active chem­ical and control your own dosage. The more vari­ables you control at home, the better.

  13. Tim says:

    I may not have the most precise method of using JWH-​​018… but what I do is simple and effective.

    One gram of j8 is put in one cup of Everclear and stirred well, allowed to settle, stirred again, and repeated a few times over the course of an hour or whatever it takes to become totally dissolved.

    17 grams of regular Sam’s Club dried parsley is put in a pyrex cake pan, and the Everclear/​J8 mix is poured over it. Stir well, level it all out, and leave it in a room tem­per­ature place for a couple days, stir­ring it around a few times until it is dry.

    You’ll end up with just about 18 grams of fin­ished product. Usual dose is about a half of an 18 tea­spoon — one mod­erate hit. Effects last a couple hours.

    Works like a charm!

  14. somesailor says:

    I am mil­itary and i tried happy shaman herbs once. The feel­ings were hard to explain. After that I waited until the morning time to take my morning piss for the at home drug test and it came out neg­ative, but can it affect me over time or it just wont be on the drug test at all in navy??? Can someone who is navy give me their exper­i­ence and what happened???

  15. Bob Hope says:

    How does JWH-​​018 stay in your system?
    Thanks.

    Bob

  16. x1 says:

    Bob:

    Based on the assays that are the basis of this thread (found at top), there’s no evid­ence that JWH-​​018 accu­mu­lates in your body over time. Rather it seems to be dis­trib­uted and excreted in hours.

    You do have to take this with a huge grain of salt…as these pur­ported tests were done anonymously.

    Hope­fully everyone is actu­ally down­loading the PDF at top and reading the full assays for them­selves. Here are some rel­evant bullet points from the results summary, which is the last PDF in the file:

    Rat Phar­ma­cokin­etics Results Commentary:

    • A rat phar­ma­cokin­etic study was per­formed by bolus IV injec­tion at 5 mg/​kg and blood was col­lected at various time points for 24 hours post-​​dose. JWH-​​018 showed a bi-​​phasic dis­tri­bu­tion sug­gesting both dis­tri­bu­tion and elim­in­a­tion phases. The clear­ance was con­sistent of hepatic blood flow rates in a rat of (55 ml/​min/​kg). The volume of dis­tri­bu­tion sug­gests that the drug is well dis­trib­uted. No accu­mu­la­tion was observed.

    JWH-​​018 dis­trib­utes well throughout the rat. It is meta­bol­ized and elim­in­ated nor­mally and shows a half life of ~2 hours.

  17. VINCE says:

    I have received gwh-​​018 but the only thing I could find was ever clear 151 proof, will this work for the sol­lu­tion that x1 has provided us with.

  18. pooh says:

    dunno, got my research­chem­icalz in, did the 151 everclear mix, 1.5g (1g 073, .5g 018) to 750ml, so 2mg/​ml. I started taking 2ml at a time, waiting an hour, then 5ml, still nothing… i just knocked back10ml of the stuff. what’s going on here? the powder never com­pletely dis­solved! did i get took? tried vaping some of the 018…nada. the K2 works fine for me. not a troll.

  19. x1 says:

    Vince:

    No. You need the 190 proof. 151-​​proof Everclear is not suf­fi­cient. You can order the 190 proof online if you can’t find it locally.

    pooh:

    It is impossible to know whether your JWH was good or bunk. But it is clear from your post that you used the wrong Everclear. You need 190-​​proof, not 151. This is why “the powder never com­pletely dissolved”.

    Even in the correct 190-​​proof Everclear, repeated manual agit­a­tion by a human is required for the powder to dis­solve com­pletely. As is made clear in the described method. This is not difficult.

    Fur­ther­more, I don’t see why you used a full 750mL of liquid to dis­solve 1.5g. My method described was for a total of 1g of agent (500mg each of 018 and 073) dis­solved in 400mL of 190-​​proof.

    If you were going to use 1.5g of agent, this would extra­polate to 600mL of required Everclear, if you were fol­lowing the method. So you’ve got an extra 150mL of Everclear for your dis­solved agent sub­strate, that you don’t really need. I suppose you were thinking that you wanted a flat 2mg per mil­li­liter, for easier rationing…rather than the 2.5mg per mil­li­liter of the posted method…I don’t know the thought process there but it seems unne­ces­sary to dilute the agent above and beyond what is already veri­fied as working.

    However it’s a moot point if you use the wrong Everclear.

    Can’t really comment on the vaping, as I’ve never bothered trying to smoke or vape this powder. Too impre­cise and risky. I cer­tainly wouldn’t advise con­tinuing to drink more and more of the liquid in one sitting. You should have felt some­thing after an hour with the initial dose. Contact the vendor and complain.

    By the way, I can only vouch for the 1:1 ratio of 018 to 073.

    What happens when you opt to tilt your ratio heavily in favor of one or the other is beyond me.

    My ori­ginal batch is still going strong and I have recently had some remark­able exper­i­ences hov­ering around the 5mL liquid dose level, which fol­lowing the ori­ginal method works out to about 12.5 mg JWH. But this only after careful incre­mental testing begin­ning at 2mL, once a week, and ramping up each sub­sequent week in half-​​milliliter increments.

  20. pooh says:

    i think if i can get it mixed I’ll be good. feeling it pretty good now @20mg. i take it all back. good researchchemicalz.

  21. lurker says:

    Why do I expect pooh’s next post to describe his visit to the hos­pital lol

    Pooh, update, please!

  22. x1 says:

    There’s a good lesson here. The drink method is just as risky as the smoking method if you don’t use the proper solvent. How can you pos­sibly know how much JWH you’ve truly con­sumed, if half your powder is swirling around in the mix? It wouldn’t take more than a few of the heavier crys­tals in the inadequately-​​prepped solu­tion, if thought­lessly or acci­dent­ally con­sumed, to tip one well over the 10, 15, 20mg threshold or beyond…

    I would hope not to see any more of these half-​​assed exper­i­ments. Espe­cially since all the solid info anyone would need to do this per­fectly well and have a safe, great time is already typed plain as day on this very page.

    But I must admit, it is good blog theatre.

  23. Voice of reason says:

    For those of you using the jwh-​​018 by vapor­izing, be very careful to use the proper dose. Not telling you to do that, its not for con­sump­tion :P

    but to put this into per­spective without a scale, the tip of a 132 inch screw­driver when scooped into the powder looks like way too little product. NOT! You should use a scale, because that small amount is actu­ally going to have a very strong effect (so I am told, not saying that I have done this, that is not legal). Just trying to help. For those searching for fer­til­izer for their banzai trees, do a google search for the pure product. dont waste your time with k2 and the likes. Its much cheaper to get in the pure form (90.00 for two grams and free ship­ping, or one gram for 45.00 plus shipping)

  24. jay says:

    I tried this jwh it was fuckin crazy it felt like i was trippin my heart rate increased and I had a crazy brain high i thought i was goin to die for a minute. I must have used to much but then again it is new to me. A friend of mine has a lot of it and doesnt know what to do with it because no one wants to try it. So he gave me some and me an my buddies tried it crazy experince!!!!!!

  25. ilstudent says:

    i gave myself an at home drug test to see if i would pass after smoking k2 for about a week. i couldn’t tell if the test was incon­clusive or pos­itive. i was con­fused until my bril­liant little brother asked, “did you smoke it out of a pipe with weed resin in it?”

    wow. i felt stupid. but i haven’t tried testing myself again since buying a new pipe and using it instead

    …just a sug­ges­tion to anyone else out there who might need to pass a drug screen and is smoking the legal stuff to avoid a pos­itive result!

  26. ernie says:

    maybe stupid ques­tion but where can i buy serenity now?

  27. berny says:

    I have tried Spice.. A company from Kansas was raided with the stuff I bought. The company I pur­chased from dis­ap­peared also. I aquired 1000 mg of JWH-​​018. It’s fun but I’m not sure I will con­tinue. A little goes.….well why repeat the applic­able cliché.It will mess people up unless they really have a scale , sooner or later. A lot of people aren’t dis­cip­lined or they are care­less at times. I’m not sure what to think about RC’s.

  28. J says:

    I think that they should use JWH in cali­fornia to replace medical weed. If they did this it would be a pos­itive and a plus for them chem. Its just unfor­tu­nate that people use it in an ignorant way and OD. I was ignorant myself in the early years. If they ban jwh 18 and 73, what about all the other JWH’s?? Hu-​​200 I think is banned but this is because its like 100 times potent then thc, that is on the dea’s website. I think if the vendors warned people of how potent the stuff is, they would have more respect and do a lot less.

    JWH is like giving a noob driver an drag racer as their first vehicle. Most will crash and burn because they are inex­per­i­enced and think they are driving their grandma’s caddy.

  29. msshaw says:

    I find it inter­esting that people sit here & compare spice to marijuana. I’ve never seen anyone get so high on weed that they went to the hos­pital. I’ve never seen anyone on weed need to monitor their intake like spice. My son became addicted to spice over the past several months. He became reck­lass & started to com­pensate for anxiety & heart pal­pit­a­tions with OCD’s. So now his addic­tion includes pre­scrip­tion med’s to com­pensate for how screwed up spice made him. He’s in treat­ment now, but still think spice is the best thing that happened to him. Is that the road you want to travel?

  30. x1 says:

    msshaw:

    I’m sorry for your son’s troubles. But with all due respect, it seems you are blaming an inan­imate object for the result of some poor choices made by a human being. Did Spice force itself into your son’s body? Did someone force him to smoke it at gunpoint?

    Obvi­ously people compare spice to marijuana, because the blend looks like marijuana, and the active chem­ical hits the same receptors in the brain. And there are thou­sands of people who can consume Spice, in mod­er­a­tion, or even in excess, without suf­fering the chronic dark spiral of addic­tion and health prob­lems you say your son has.

    Your son is just one person. Maybe there are some other people out there just like him, just as prone to fixate pro­fusely on a sub­stance until it breaks them down. But that’s not going to happen to most people. In fact, it’s not going to happen to the vast majority of people who use Spice or similar can­nabinoid blends or pure can­nabinoid chemicals.

    Again, I’m sorry for your son, but your report of his down­ward spiral is, for this par­tic­ular sub­stance, the EXCEPTION…not the rule. This isn’t a hard drug AT ALL. It is nothing close to meth, heroin, crack…or even alcohol.

    Tell me, how many people have died from “Spice addic­tion”? I’m waiting.

    The only good point I can scrub up out of your fear-​​post is that blends like Spice should be avoided anyway, if one can readily obtain the pure can­nabinoid and has the wits and simple mater­ials to reg­u­late and dose it with respect and precision.

    Drugs are drugs, and people are people. Some­times stupid people give good drugs a bad name.

  31. Pallypower says:

    To over­dose on THC you’d have to smoked 2pounds and it would have to be all in 1 hit. So smoke your brains you good.

  32. J says:

    X1, I think it is pos­sible for someone to die from JWH-​​018. Because it has been proven that JWH increases a humans heart rate. If the humans heart cannot handle the heartspeed, the worst could happen, as I men­tioned above with the elderly. I think JWH, spice, etc should be done in mod­er­a­tion to prevent the worst. I posted a link pre­vi­ously about a person that used 3 grams each day! 50 bucks a day! and when he got off, he suffered severe with­drawal symp­toms. If any­thing, with­drawal should be done gradu­ally. I know its pos­sible for people to become addicted to this stuff because the feeling reported is bliss when done prop­erly. Rats have died in lab reports from OD and humans can die as well from heart failure, heart attack, etc. People have suffered con­vul­sions and seizures from this stuff which is very very serious.

  33. J says:

    After reading this blog post, it made me think twice about JWH-​​018 and the rest. This link dis­cusses the long term symp­toms of taking JWH. Long term is defined here as less than 1 year. I would assume the symp­toms would only get worse if taken over a year. This stuff is pretty serious in my opinion.

    http://​www​.drugs​-forum​.com/​f​o​r​u​m​/​s​h​o​w​t​h​r​e​a​d​.​p​h​p​?​t​=​1​0​5​601

  34. x1 says:

    J:

    Good lord, man. Let me respond.

    “It has been proven that JWH increases a humans heart rate.”

    –Yes. So does marijuana. So do many other things. So does caffeine.

    “If the humans heart cannot handle the heartspeed, the worst could happen…”

    OK, Doctor Cardio. With fancy terms like ‘heartspeed’, I’ll assume you’re a trained car­di­olo­gist. Let’s agree that if someone has a weak heart, they shouldn’t do ANY drugs. Duh.

    “I think JWH.…should be done in moderation..”

    –Yes. Wow. Shocker.

    “I know its pos­sible for people to become addicted…because the feeling reported is bliss when done properly.”

    –If ‘bliss’ is the cri­teria for addic­tion, then we’re all hope­less addicts. One time I rode a roller coaster and felt bliss. Guess I’m addicted. Also, one time I had really great sex with this girl. You know what I felt? Bliss. Uh-​​oh. Better go to rehab.

    “After reading this blog post blah blah blah…”

    –I’ve read that thread before (and it’s not a blog, it’s a hugely visited forum).

    You must be a very selective reader. What I find when I read that thread is a mix of people who use JWH/​Spice stu­pidly, and people who under­stand the word moderation.

    Here are some choice quotes from across the spec­trum of that thread, with my com­ments after each:

    “Swim liked the feeling from it so Swim used it every night after work(Swim works second shift) as a way to relax and get a good nights sleep. Into the second month swim began to notice that his tol­er­ance was way up needing quite a bit of jwh018 to feel anything.”

    –Stupid person was using daily as a sleep aid. This builds tol­er­ance and depend­ence. Where’s the moderation?

    “swim has been smoking blends and 018 for about 8 months heavily/​daily now”

    –Stupid. Oh my gosh, you abused a sub­stance heavily and it gave you prob­lems? Wow.

    “Aren’t these the same symp­toms as Can­nabis withdrawal?”

    –Haha. Some­body on the thread noticed it sounds like a bunch of hard­core pot­heads trying to quit pot. Go figure.

    “yeah the rage started when swim bought a gram of pure 018 half way through the bag (he was drinking very heavily at the time also and hes not ment to be drinking, he cant control himself when he dose) of 018 he went nuts, and over the space a few week he com­pletly wrecked a rented house and caused thousonds of euros worth of damage. he had been using smoking blends heavily around 2 to 3 grams a day bofore that.
    he stoped drinking, the rage stayed but not as bad and he just became more and more high strung. he had moved back home because he was out on the street for what he had done to the rented house. it just went to the stage where swim would not leave the house, the only time he would is when he would fly off the handle to avoid doing some­thing he would regret (flight or fight sort of thing) or to go get more smoke.
    he became a real recluse, this recluse has happenend to swim before with benzo addic­tion but, so what ever that tells swiy.
    there was no real stress involved bar the anxiety caused from 018 and blends. swims not driving, hes on a driving ban and is umem­ployed no kids or respons­ib­ility at all really. swim stopped smoking mj/​hash when he started smoking 018 it took com­plete control of him. he had been smoking
    mj/​hash from he was boy. for around 15 years in all but never got rage from it, only when he was using mj/​hash heavily and could not get any.”

    –Now this person is a real fuck-​​up. Notice the part about the drinking, and the “benzo addic­tion”, and the years and years of chronic abuse. You can’t put any­thing down to JWH from this guy. This dude has lots of other issues. Chem­ic­ally unbal­anced and shouldn’t be doing ANY substances.

    “shit swim forgot some­thing, swim should of added he was also using cocaine and sniffing powders and from head shops which could of played a part in this, guess there are a lot of other factors that could of caused fits of rage. ivory wave was the most trouble­some of them, gave swim psy­chosis and para­noia for about a week. theres a thread about it on here, the head shop where swim bought have taken off the shelf.”

    –That’s from the same guy as the pre­vious quote! GOOD LORD. This fool just dumps any­thing into his body he can find. I’m starting to get rage issues reading this moron’s posts.

    SWIM abused 018 & 073 for 3 months approx, getting through 5+ grams of each, very approx figures, not less.. Every evening , and weekend full abuse, then smoking during the day before/​lunch at work. This was getting out of control. MJ is treated the same, can­nbinoid more-​​ishness..”

    –Abuse, abuse, abuse. I’m noti­cing a pattern where some people abuse the crap out of some­thing well before they ever have any real phys­ical prob­lems. People are cre­ating their own depend­en­cies by immod­erate beha­vior, and then reporting long-​​term neg­ative effects as if sur­prised that there are con­sequences of abuse. But on balance these issues are in the same family as when someone heavily abuses reefer.

    “To be honest You just described what swim went through with marijuana the first long time after he started smoking it.”

    –Bingo. Which would make sense con­sid­ering it lights up exactly the same part of your brain.

    “6 mo. now — and common Asprin seems much more dan­gerous than JWH​-018​.No tol­er­ance build-​​up, no sleep issues — nothing. SWIM’s PTSD seems to be in remis­sion as well.”

    –Inter­esting.

    “There definately is a an addic­tion factor involved with daily abuse, men­tally and slightly phys­ic­ally, but phys­ic­ally no worse than a crap cold. Not much fun, but nothing the average right minded SWIY couldnt handle.”

    –Dear God, can it be? The Voice of Reason?

    “Mod­er­a­tion and taking days off is key with this sub­stance, at least in SWIMs experience.”

    YES. As with ANY SUB­STANCE IN THE WORLD.

    SWIM started out using match head amounts. They worked very well but after two weeks the dose needed to double and SWIM was doing it six times a day. After six months of smoking SWIM can use an a quarter sized amount and still not reach the desired affect. In six month SWIM smoked almost 15 grams of this shit. It got to the point where SWIM would wake up in the night smoke it.

    Two days ago SWIM stopped because he real­ized he was severely addicted. In the first night SWIM exper­i­enced night sweats that had a very strong chem­ical odor to them. Appetite is nil. Rest­less­ness is at an all time high. SWIM has zero appetite. SWIM can’t sleep. SWIM threw up the first night and the next morning when he quit. SWIM can hon­estly say this is worse than when he kicked his heroin habit (SWIM just snorted, SWIM prolly exper­i­enced 80% of the full heroin withdrawal).”

    –This is the addictive per­son­ality type. Notice he’s already been around the block with heroin. Anybody using JWH six times a day has a problem in their head…it ain’t the JWH making them do it. You’re going to get sick off any­thing if you abuse it like that.

    There’s a few more on the back end of the thread.

    I noticed that in all those posts, nobody went to the hos­pital and nobody died. The worst, heav­iest abusers had trouble sleeping, got night sweats, one guy had diarrhea, another guy puked.

    Gee.

    Scary.

  35. Willie says:

    Just woke up this morning. I decided to try the Gonjah herbal blend last night. The one herbal blend that cost $122.00 for 7 grams. The pack­aging and the product are all first class, espe­cially the vanilla aroma. The high is an intox­ic­ating high. You are high, but you crash and burn after one or two hour of smoking. The after effect is a hang over type feeling. There is this ter­rible dry mouth and the feeling that I have drunk several cases of beer. I am slow and dazed. The rest of the stuff in my pipe is going to be dumped out. I have built a little tol­er­ance from these can­nabin­oids after testing a few of the products. This stuff is not for the weak. It feels just like I have been high for a long time and my body move­ment is out of sync with my brain. I need a cup of coffee.

    I do not like this after feeling of smoking this stuff. I feel drunk and slow. I don’t have an edge to any­thing in life. Do I want more? Hell no. I want to smoke right now and all I have is laced JWH-​​18 products. I wish I had a product free of chem­icals with 100% cer­ti­fied organic herbs that can get me a mellow high without the crash and burn after effects. Some­thing to make me feel refresh and alive in the morning (without THC). Not some­thing that makes my body feel likes it has been on a drinking binge. When JWH-​​018 or any syn­thes­ized chem­icals becomes illegal in the US and a pun­ish­able crime for not listing it in the ingredi­ents what will these makers do? They will go out of busi­ness because they hadn’t taken the research time to spend their money on finding an all natural organic herbal blend that exceeds any syn­thes­ized chem­icals. Did you know that 80% or more of the world phar­ma­ceut­ical drugs were syn­thes­ized from plant material? It’s time to go back to the plant. I still feel drunk. Have a good day.

  36. MachinaMaker says:

    Man, everyone wants to talk about over­dosing on this stuff. I’m sorry, but that sounds pretty ridicu­lous to me. I’m kind of new to this stuff, been smoking it for about a month (not con­stantly. I smoked it a couple of weeks ago and I’ve done it the last couple of days), but I’ve had no serious prob­lems with it. I ser­i­ously was bored up where I’m staying and decided to have a smoking spree on this shit, see what it was like. I started smoking Sunday March 7th (?) and fin­ished Wed­nesday March 10th. That’s yes­terday, in case you didn’t know.

    –Sunday night I smoked about two match­heads worth, and not even at once. I got pretty fucking high, even felt like I was trip­ping a bit. No panic attack, no anxiety. I felt good.

    –Monday morning I woke up at approx­im­ately 6:00 am, took a shower and did my daily routine and started smoking at 6:30. I smoked again at 8:30 am. Then once again at 11:00 am. This was still with approx­im­ately a match­head size amount, or a simple one-​​hitter pipe. I smoked again at 12:45 pm. No anxiety, just calm, but I feel like I’m trip­ping pretty hard. This is some strong, long lasting stuff and now I’m just trying to keep my high going. I smoked again at 2:30 pm then at 6:00pm and then again at 7:00 pm and 10:00 pm. I came down from prac­tic­ally an all day high at 11:00.

    I had the same routine every day and when I finally came off today I felt not ill effects, no breathing prob­lems, and despite some hazy memory was pretty good. I feel no addic­tion to it and though I def­in­itely want to do it again, I’ll prob­ably not smoke that much. Not because of ill effects, but because I don’t need that much. I can smoke once or twice in a day, with that match­head size and I’m good for several hours. I wouldn’t make this an everyday thing either. Maybe once a week or every other week. I’ll prob­ably smoke again either this weekend or next weekend. Why not smoke it everyday? Its not because of health issues or any of that. Its the fact that me and my friends will lit­er­ally trip on this stuff. Like a small dose of shrooms or some­thing, its weird. I’m not the type of person that wants to trip all day every day and I feel no phys­ical or mental desire to do so. Its good in small doses every once in a while just to feel good.

    Which leads me to my ques­tion. Have any of you guys tripped on this stuff? I’m not talking about hard­core hal­lu­cin­ating, but a very mel­lowed out kind of trip.

  37. J says:

    Mach­i­n­a­maker, keep smoking JWH everyday with the same smoke schedule for 6 months and then stop cold turkey. You’ll be feenin like an addict!

  38. x1 says:

    Willie:

    Instead of whining that the JWH-​​product com­panies won’t get off their duffs and give you the magical perfect natural organic non-​​chemical herbal blend that makes you happy, why don’t you get off your duff and create it yourself?

    I can tell you from my exper­i­ences with clean 018 and 073 (not any stinking blend) that the neg­ative drunken stupor you’re exper­i­en­cing from that Gonjah crap is NOT the sig­na­ture of JWH. There’s all sorts of other garbage in many of these blends, and that’s what’s making you feel all the hangover mess. If you stuck with the pure RC and dosed it cor­rectly, you wouldn’t have all that grief.

    Mach­i­n­a­Maker:

    At about the 12.5mg level I have had def­inite psy­che­delic activity of a very pleasant and mild, but acutely notice­able variety. Pristine closed-​​eye visuals that I would char­ac­terize as cas­cading, lumin­es­cent liquid of all colors and color-​​blends, but most striking because of the glow, as if backlit with soft warm lamps…retained for brief dur­a­tion with eyes open. Not really a psy­cho­lo­gical trip (which I think is a good thing), but this visual element was effort­less and sub­stan­tial. A nice bonus to cap a tran­scendent, heavy stone, to be sure.

    It feels like there’s a lot of band­width there, too. Like I could play around the 12 — 15mg range and have a per­fectly safe yet deep swim. We’ll see.

    Bearing in mind, this is through liquid inges­tion. You say you are getting a mellow trip just from smoking? That’s impressive. Most smoke reports seem to be either the basic short stone.…or WHOOPS PANIC ATTACK BECAUSEWASN’T CAREFUL.

  39. Berny says:

    I made a mistake today. I smoked a shaving about 2.0 mg on rebel spice then another 1 mg 10 mins later then I vapor­ized a 2.0 hit in a small pint jar and hit it. That didn’t seem to work so i hit another 1.5 mg then got over­board. I called my son and waked around my neigbor­hood for 30 mins waiting for him to come over. He talked to me and we shoveled snow off the lawn to the street until I felt better.
    My res­pir­atory system is down a little to Bron­chitis so I ahould have abstained. I gave the remainding 700 – 800 mgs to my son to take away from me. He is going to make it into grams as he is needing clean UA’s.
    I hated the trip­pi­ness that felt like LSD.
    I know, I’m a dork for over­doing it . But I think it’s not meant for me due to I have a little anxiety as it is. So others be careful.
    Berny is no Ja Wah…ROFLMAO

  40. Berny says:

    I may try the Everclear method. But for me the smoking isnt the best. Or maybe stick with herbal blends.
    It makes me feel like I’m doing some­thing really crazy when I smoke it. Feel­ings of isol­a­tion unless I am talking to someone. Para­noia isn’t my bag.
    Grass is much better than any syn­thetic. At least it’s real.

  41. x1 says:

    It’s all “real”. It’s all just molecules and brain chem­istry. The 018073 combo through liquid inges­tion is as good or better than any KB I’ve ever had in my life.

  42. Dave says:

    I just smoked about a gram of this shit last night.. I went to Wal­greens today and picked up a self-​​administered urine drug test for THC, and the test came up NEG­ATIVE.. Smoke on playa.

  43. Berny says:

    Dave– you smoked a gram of herbal blend with JWH-​​018 not a gram od JWH , right ?
    Just needed clarification.

  44. Tim says:

    One would have to wonder what smoking a GRAM of it would do over the course of a night, but I suppose it COULD be done. But geeeze…

    That’s about a $50 tab for an evening’s enter­tain­ment? Toooo rich for me! A gram of 018 will last me for MONTHS.
    Guess this 55 year old is Over The Hill for being such a WUSS… but I still reg­u­larly enjoy it, a few MICRO-​​TEENSY-​​GRAMS at a time.

    Mebbe I’m too old to be a playa?

  45. Berny says:

    No Tim, I’m in 50’s too and a gram would last me about 2 – 3 months. Teensie, but unless I get a scale I’m going to not partake. Needs to be accurate for light­weights like us.
    The way it con­cen­trates from the shoulders up and the lower body feels so dead is the weirdest feeling. Some people just like to party hearty. I just like a little mood lift.
    For example, I love drinking Caribou Lou’s and I only drink 2 in an evening. Just right!
    Caribou Lou– Caribou Lou is 1 12 parts 151-​​proof rum, 1 part coconut rum, and 5 parts pine­apple juice. Combine these ingredi­ents together in a mixing con­tainer of your choosing.

    Oh – Don’t forget to shake with chipped ice. Voila!

  46. x1 says:

    Oh damn. Coconut rum. I’m sold.

    Hmm, ought to try 1 Caribou Lou with about 2mL 018073 Everclear solu­tion blended in. That sounds tight! Prob­ably take the edge right off.

  47. Berny says:

    x1, it’s such an awesome clean euphoria — I think because 151 is so clean.
    I don’t drink more than 3 “lou’s” in an evening and no hangover at all. Malibu Coconut Rum is best…MMMM..I may have to get some 190 everclear. If I have approx, 700 Mg of Pure JWH-​​018 ( I’m sure it is ) how much everclear for 2 Mg doses with the JWH-​​018, and can you evap­orate it off ( about 12 of the total liquid amount removed and added to Damiana ) and then how would you cal­cu­late a smoking amount from the dried matter? Thanks and cheeers on your Caribou Lou “fusion” !

  48. x1 says:

    “approx 700mg”

    Hmm, I don’t like that word…approximate…with potent chem.

    Well, for 700mg of 018, you would dis­solve that in 350mL of 190-​​proof E for a solu­tion that gives a 2mg dose per milliliter.

    At this point I’ll just throw in my usual recom­mend­a­tion that 018 plays beau­ti­fully with 073 at a 1 to 1 ratio, and that’s the only way for me.…really can’t vouch for 018 solo. Seems mostly to be a straight head high.…I’d recom­mend bal­an­cing with an 073 body high to coun­teract the isol­ated mindfuck.

    Sure you can evap­orate off 190-​​proof E, but the amount of herbal sub­strate you use is going to determine how much JWH is shot through per gram of bud. I’d recom­mend going over to drugs-​​forum and reading up on the make-​​your-​​own-​​blend teks, because you don’t want to half-​​ass it and get a half-​​dunked nug from insuf­fi­cient solu­tion bath, and be hit or miss on your vapes.

    And that’s basic­ally why blends suck, even make-​​your-​​owns where you control everything. More steps, more vari­ables, more materials…putting you further and further away from the abso­lute cer­tainty and essence of the raw active chemical…for essen­tially nos­talgic reasons. My thought is…why spend so much time and energy trying to dress up a bleeding-​​edge syn­thetic to make it look and feel like reefer? Reminds me of what Allan Holdsworth would say about playing out with the Synthaxe…people always wanted him to make it sound like a Strat.

    Thanks for the tip on the Malibu. Gotta check that out! Cheers–

  49. Berny says:

    Ok x1..If I do get the 073…So I measure 500 mg each (exact,) how much EverC ? Then how many ml of this brew to make a proper safe enjoy­able dose for a newby ?

  50. x1 says:

    400mL Everclear 190 proof.

    500mg 018 + 500mg 073.

    Thor­oughly dis­solve. Til you see not a single speck or grain in the fluid. May need to scrape around a bit with a wooden spoon, since a small amount likes to collect at the bottom. Just keep scraping and mashing that little tiny pile of grains at the bottom…it gets smaller and smaller til there’s nothing left and its all dissolved.

    You now have 400mL of a solu­tion that comes out to 2.5mg of JWH per mil­li­liter of fluid.

    Test first with 2 mil­li­liters. This is a 5mg JWH dose (2.5mg per mil­li­liter, times 2). Wait 30 min (prob­ably less, you’ll feel it coming on sur­pris­ingly quick). Do NOT multi-​​dose during the same session. If you feel nothing, or very little, relax and test again another day. Go have a Caribou Lou. Or three. People get in trouble with this stuff when they double and triple up in one sitting.

    I have the full method typed up in my first post way up in this thread somewhere.

    I bet there are a lot of people trying this liquid thing with just 018. I swear you need 018 and 073 together to slice all the hard edges off the exper­i­ence. Very mellow, com­plete, and good.

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