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JWH-018 Toxicology

By John Clarke

ToxicSince my last post about the spice behind Spice (and other smoking mix­tures such as Smoke, Serenity Now, K2, Sence, etc), it has been brought to my atten­tion that some initial tox­ic­o­logy testing has been done on the syn­thetic can­nabinoid JWH-​​018. Before we get down to the details however, here’s some pretty weird back­ground inform­a­tion — the sponsor and pro­vider of these studies wishes to remain anonymous! Unfor­tu­nately, this makes the whole thing a lot less cred­ible, but since this is the only inform­a­tion we have right now, let’s hope someone else can verify these things at a later date. So far, one pro­fessor (who also wishes to remain anonymous) thinks these are real, but as of yet, no one is willing to put their name down on any kind of formal state­ment. If you, or anyone you know, has the rel­evant expertise to look over these studies, please drop me a line!

(Quick Update — A lot of people have been dis­cussing and linking to this post, but there remains some sus­pi­cion that I have some­thing to gain by saying the JWH-​​018 isn’t that harmful. Firstly, JWH-​​018 is now illegal in the UK. Secondly, as I men­tioned just above this, if I have got any­thing wrong, please pick me up on it! If it turns out my ana­lysis of the data is incor­rect, I will correct it!)

Feel free to invent your own con­spiracy the­ories, but for now, let’s take a look at the data. You can down­load the PDF doc­u­ments in this Zip file [2.04 MB]

CYP450 Inhibition Assay

This first assay looks at the effect of a drug on spe­cific enzymes in your liver. These Cyto­chrome P450 enzymes are respons­ible for meta­bol­ising the vast majority of drugs you might put in your body, so if you’ve got too much of one drug in your system (ie paracetamol/​acetaminophen), then other drugs that are also meta­bol­ised by these enzymes (ie alcohol) may compete for these enzymes and so hang around in your system for longer. As you can imagine, it’s important to under­stand how one drug may affect the meta­bolism of another, in case of any dis­as­terous drug-​​drug interactions.

Results: JWH-​​018 will prob­ably interact with the meta­bolism of other drugs, so more in vivo work is necessary.

hERG Binding Assay

hERG stands for human Ether-​​à-​​go-​​go Related Gene. This gene codes for a par­tic­ular type of potassium channel found on heart tissue. This channel pumps potassium ions out of the heart muscle cells and are crit­ical in coördin­ating the heart’s elec­trical activity. Unfor­tu­nately, these chan­nels are a prime target for drugs to bind to, dis­rupting their func­tion. This can lead to “Long QT Syn­drome”, asso­ci­ated with fainting and can lead to sudden death, so you can see why these kinds of tests are important. Here’s a typical ECG recording showing what’s called the “QT interval” shown in blue, which lasts for longer than it should do if these chan­nels are disrupted.

QT Interval

Results: JWH-​​018 does not inter­fere with these chan­nels. That’s a good thing.

Cytotoxicity Assay

This simple test essen­tially looks at how many cells die when you perfuse them with a drug. The more cells that die, the more toxic the drug.

Results: JWH-​​018 is not cyto­toxic at low concentrations.

GreenScreen HC Genotoxicity Assay

This assay looks at how much a drug will inter­fere with our DNA. Typ­ic­ally, any­thing that damages DNA is bad news, being poten­tially car­ci­no­genic, making the rationale behind this test glar­ingly obvious. This test was also per­formed in the pres­ence of a frac­tion taken from liver cells, which will break down the drug. This not only checks if the drug will damage DNA, but also its break­down products.

Results: JWH-​​018 does not damage DNA, so shouldn’t give you cancer.

Rat Repeat Toxicity Assay

Guess what happens in this exper­i­ment. A number of ren­agade lab rats looking for a bad time are rounded up and prom­ised free drugs (kind of like Pleasure Island from Pinoc­chio; that shit was scary!). The rats are then dosed up and observed. Ini­tially, they appear leth­argic (read: totally baked) but a few of them died at higher doses. This appears to be down to prob­lems breathing rather than organ tox­icity, but only affected the male rats, who appeared more sens­itive to the com­pound. The drug didn’t appear to accu­mu­late in their systems either, but they did lose some weight, prob­ably because they couldn’t be arsed to eat. JWH-​​018 showed a huge potency and was found to be tachy­phylactic (my new favourite word — it means that more of a drug is required to reach the same state fol­lowing an initial dosage).

Results: According to FDA guidelines, the human equi­valent dose is 0.016 mg/​kg but it should be tested in other species before this can be seen as reliable!

Rat Pharmacokinetics

Data is col­lected on a number of dif­ferent “phar­ma­cokin­etic” aspects of the drug, such as how it is absorbed, dis­trib­uted throughout the body, meta­bol­ised and excreted, which can help with the design of future clin­ical trials.

Results: JWH-​​018 is dis­trib­uted well throughout the rat’s tissues. Meta­bolism and excre­tion are normal, with a plasma half-​​life of approx­im­ately 2 hours

Summary

Well, from the looks of these tests, JWH-​​018 seems to be pretty safe, but unless you want to piss off Ben Gol­dacre, it would be wise not to rely on this “test tube data” entirely. Also, like I said before, we don’t know where this data has come from, clouding the issue even further.

Feel free to ask any ques­tions in the comments.

Big thanks to Alfa @ Drugs​-Forum​.com for letting me know about these studies. You can read all about JWH-​​018 on their Drugs Wiki.

COM­MENTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW CLOSED. YOU CAN CON­TINUE DIS­CUSSING SYN­THETIC CAN­NABIN­OIDS HERE OR INDI­VIDUAL SMOKING MIX­TURES HERE.

444 Responses to JWH-018 Toxicology

  1. syrup1 says:

    I’m not a pro at the chem­ical stuff, but if it takes Alcohol to get it to break down and mix so it can used, I would venture to say it is not water soluble. Because it takes 190+ proof alcohol to get it to dis­solve, see my reas­oning? The medical portion of would reas­on­like this: Alcohol is broken down in the liver, the liver breaks down fat, ie: this is I would presume a chem­ical that may linger in the fatty tissue of the body for a while. I am no Dr. but have 10yrs as an EMT, working in the ICU and ER and nursing homes as well. I believe if abused, like most chem­icals, the few ruin for the many, this will be an illegal drug soon. The poten­tial for abuse is very high. It only takes a few bad situ­ations placed in the public eyes…

  2. Erod says:

    Well if that’s the case syrup1, and I’m not saying you’re wrong, but how could that be so if the half life of jwhxxx is just a couple of hours?

  3. nick says:

    i just want to say thanks for bring this stuff out to the people i just started to smoke this stuff and i really enjoy it i was won­dering if there was any other way to use it if u can please let me know

    thanks and keep it up

  4. syrup1 says:

    the chem­ical may break down to other deriv­it­ives and those may be fat soluble as well, dont know for sure. I have enough fun fig­uring out the struc­ture of H2O.

  5. Chrissy says:

    I don’t know about harmful..
    but…

    Someone packed a bowl of nothing but jwh 018.. and the bowl caught on fire, so I hit it until the fire went out… Now I don’t know what happened the 2 seconds after that.. But all of a sudden I was curled in a ball in the front seat, Unable to Talk or move. I couldn’t remember who I was, where I lived, where I was at, or who the people around me were… which were my best friends and my boy­friend. For the next 3 hours my eyes rolled in the back of my head and nobody could get a single response out of me except for “No.” when they men­tioned the hos­pital. My heart was racing so fast I thought I was gonna die. I was so fucked up I hon­estly thought these people who I couldn’t remember tricked me into smoking crack. Sounds redicu­lous now, but it was just as intense as a pre­vious bad acid trip. Into the 4th or 5th hour I came back into reality slightly and remembered some­what of what happened and who I was. Even the next morning I felt a little fucked up still.

    So if you smoke this shit, be careful. Dif­ferent people have dif­ferent reactions.

  6. x1 says:

    ^
    Chrissy, I’m going to (not) go out on a limb and say that ANYBODY who slurps down a massive hit off a FULL, FLAMING BOWL of JWH is prob­ably going to have a similar reac­tion, i.e. full blown overdose.

    I have to ser­i­ously ques­tion the men­tality of the “someone” who “packed a bowl of nothing but jwh 018″. That someone is a damn fool.

    And I’m not sure what you were thinking, hitting that flaming acci­dent waiting to happen.

    The only way that whole scen­ario could have been more stupid is if you and your crew recorded the incident and uploaded it to youtube, à la every stupid salvia n00b with a Flip camcorder.

    Stupid kids.

    And I’m sorry you went through that. Sorry to sound so harsh. I’ve had a couple bad times myself (not with JWH) so I can’t pretend to be holier than thou. I can def­in­itely relate.

    Some­where out there, some kid is reading these com­ments RIGHT NOW and is going to NOT OD because s/​he GETS THE POINT. I hope.

    (Don’t smoke this stuff AT ALL, people! Liquefy and prosper!)

  7. syrup1 says:

    X1, correct me if i’m wrong but the meaning of “half life” is the time for a chem­ical or sub­stance to break­down into other sub­stances. Half life does not mean for the drug or its com­pon­ents to be “out“of your system. They may be there but as other chem­icals. Usually when a drug test is done they are looking for a chem­ical trails of what you have used, not the actual chem­ical, but its broken down ingredi­ents after the body has pro­cessed the ori­ginal drug. For our “Con­sumers” that I super­vise they look for the drug and use a pretty high threshold, so it would only show fairly recent use. As for staff and maybe for that other employers, they look for ANY amount to show up in your system, using very extremely low threshold. i know this because I now what and how they test for these drugs, I used to process crime scenes and have a know­ledge of a lab. They use stand­ard­ized tests, and gen­er­ally dont stray from it unless they are told to look else­where, or have a sus­pi­cion of some­thing. So, just dont come to work high and give them just cause to drop you for an unknown drug. If they drop you and they know your high, but it doesnt show on tests, then they will “look” for other stuff that is not on the stand­ard­ized drug tests. I hope this has helped a few people.

  8. syrup1 says:

    Got my order from jwh-​​018supply and it came in large envelope, with a plastic foil envelope inside it, with the zippy in it. packed very well. It has a sight yellow-​​ish tint to it.

  9. Berny says:

    x1– (anyone else also) If I make a 15 Mg/​Gram Herbal mix and I use equal parts of 073 and 018 with Damiana would that sound like a mild mix with the 73 added in ? I was won­dering if the 73 would lower the potency requiring me to need maybe a little heavier powder ratio than 15mg/​gram? I figured from reading that 018 alone at around 10 – 20 mg/​gram would be fairly potent but I want to use 073 and 018 together.
    I plan on using everclear.
    Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

  10. Jwndy says:

    Finally, I’ve found someone dis­cus­sion long-​​term storage on another site. This is the most autor­it­ative state­ment I’ve seen on this topic.

    “Trypt­am­ines and other indoles (incl. JWH) are easily oxid­ised; you might want to store them in an inert atmo­sphere. Phen­ethyl­am­ines should be gen­er­ally stable. Ergolines need to be in the freezer, and even then Eth-​​LAD doesn’t last very long. Dimetho­caine should be stable, but it’s hygoro­scopic so you may want to store it with calcium chloride (avail­able as a deicer or drying agent) to keep it from turning into glue. Non­clas­sical can­nabin­oids (CP-​​series) have been reported to degrade easily so I’m going with the freezer on that note, but I don’t know what exactly causes the degradation.

    Putting some Vitamin C into solu­tion with whatever may stop it from oxid­ising. There’s a lot of myth­o­logy sur­rounding Vitamin C but it is a decent anti­ox­idant, all things considered.”

    They also mention that storage in solu­tion (Everclear) will enhance long-​​term stability.

    If they say any­thing else exciting, I’ll keep you posted.

  11. lazarus says:

    I’ve been fol­lowing that thread also, and it now appears to be trending more to dry storage. Even if oxid­a­tion is a veri­fi­able concern, which is in some doubt, the ethanol itself is said to contain dis­solved oxygen. Moreover, as I have read else­where — there is the addi­tional concern that many com­pounds are less stable in solution.

    Dry may yet be the prefer­able option.

    I had a feeling these were the “go-​​to” guys.

  12. Berny says:

    I want to use 15 mg (073 and 018 in equal parts) per gram of Damiana. Since it has the 073 would that be strong enough?

  13. x1 says:

    Jwndy, lazarus -

    I can’t make out any defin­itive “winning” storage path from that thread you guys are ref­er­en­cing (which is on blue­light, for anyone else keeping score).

    The con­sensus seems to be that JWH is pretty stable as powder, with its enemies being the typical sort (light, heat, air).

    However, the info offered re: ethanol seems dubious.

    I am sus­pi­cious of some of the “expertise” of the poster named TheAzo, namely because he says “the sol­u­bility of JWH in ethanol is not that great, and in cold ethanol is even less soluble”.

    This is fac­tu­ally inac­curate. It is WATER that JWH doesn’t like. It dis­solves just fine in ethanol. And here I am talking about real ethanol.…not the 151-​​proof crap that has been watered down (it is the watering down that inhibits JWH dissolution).

    A warm water bath will enable quicker dissolution.…but as I and others have handily doc­u­mented, even room temp 190-​​proof will produce sat­is­factory dis­sol­u­tion of the powder if stirred and agit­ated with patience. And once dis­solved, it does not exhibit a tend­ency to “undis­solve” under refri­ger­a­tion. At least, I have not seen any evid­ence of recrys­tal­liz­a­tion, oxid­a­tion, what have you.

    It makes me think that TheAzo does not have any prac­tical exper­i­ence with this method of handling/​storing JWH, and is there­fore not reli­able on this issue. The fellow does go on to express rather a dis­taste for the JWH family in general…but does not make it clear exactly why.…so I am even less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    In more than one place, I have read com­ments to the effect that “com­pounds are gen­er­ally less stable in solu­tion”. This might be gen­er­ally true…or it might not. It is a vague enough state­ment, to be sure. What about THIS com­pound, and what about THIS solu­tion? How come so many much more complex organic con­struc­tions, such as bio­lo­gical spe­ci­mens, store and pre­serve just fine for decades in ethanol? Why would the same pre­ser­va­tional logic not apply to JWH?

    I am genu­inely asking, since I am an amateur rube. If someone reading this can defin­it­ively answer such ques­tions, please do so here and we ALL will be super-​​grateful!

    In the mean­time, we (and our stashes) are the guinea pigs…

  14. Tim says:

    Yep… guinea pigs we are. And ain’t it great?

    The gov’t is getting all this free research and we’re — for the most part, most of us — are having a pretty good time. So it seems…

    Maybe it’s toxic in the long term and we’ll all die hor­rible deaths. But I think not. I think the gov’t needs to fund MORE research by com­petent chemists/​entheobiologists and come up with more stuff everyone wants and enjoys — and make it avail­able at a reas­on­able price for reas­on­able people to use in a reas­on­able way.

    Just kinda stands to reason, doesn’t it?

  15. x1 says:

    Boy you said it Tim.

    I have been watching the slow domino roll of some of our more con­ser­vative Mid­western and South­eastern US states (Kansas, Ten­nessee, Georgia, Louisiana…who’d I forget?) as they’ve recently moved to illeg­alize the JWH family, as has already been done ‘cross the pond.

    The unscientific irra­tion­ality of it is pre­pos­terous, because there is no reas­on­able exam­in­a­tion and no middle ground. It’s simply, “Yikes! Kids are gettin’ stoned! Quick, ban it!”

    And the votes in these state legis­latures are over­whelm­ingly in favor of the out­right ban, with almost no dis­cus­sion. Not one con­sid­er­a­tion of “Hey, why don’t we make this illegal for minors, and reg­u­late and tax it for con­sump­tion by adults, with reas­on­able pro­vi­sion for the edu­ca­tion and dis­sem­in­a­tion of inform­a­tion about pos­sible risks?”

    Nope! Screw that! Out­right ban! Sub­stance is auto­mat­ic­ally guilty of being evil (without any com­pel­ling stat­ist­ical evid­ence of it actu­ally being harmful, physiolo­gic­ally or soci­etally speaking), and now that it is is illegal, sub­stance cannot be studied for reas­sess­ment and recon­sid­er­a­tion of its default evil/​dangerous/​illegal status without con­sid­er­able hard­ship, expense, and hoop-​​jumping. There­fore, most research sci­ent­ists will say “screw it”, and move on to some­thing else. Another lost poten­tial medi­cine, com­modity, and cul­tural totem.

    So much for freedom, liberty, and free markets! Con­ser­vat­ives do love whacking things with the ban stick.

  16. lazarus says:

    As noted — Europe banned the com­pound before the US was even aware it existed. I hardly see the Europeans as being the undis­puted bas­tions of con­ser­vatism.
    The fact that the votes on these state meas­ures are so over­whelming bears out that it is not so much a con­ser­vative vs. liberal issue — as much as it is both endemic and sys­temic for our culture as a whole to per­petuate the use of “approved” forms of mind-​​altering com­pounds (alcohol, phar­ma­ceut­icals, etc.) while fan­at­ic­ally demon­izing any and all “unap­proved” com­pounds. The “gov­ern­ment knows best” credo does not appear to have a par­tic­ular polit­ical affil­i­ation. Nor does it have a stellar track record of late.

    But getting back to the storage issue — it seems to me there are (at least) two dif­ferent points to be con­sidered here.
    Is there any solidly con­clusive data veri­fying that oxid­a­tion is a primary cause of degrad­a­tion? If so — I haven’t seen it yet. Granting for the sake of argu­ment that oxid­a­tion is a serious concern, there still does not seem to be any way — other than repla­cing the oxygen with an inert gas — to com­pletely elim­inate oxygen contact. The best one can do is min­imize it and both methods appear to have the poten­tial for doing that.

    And you’re right x1 — I have found nothing other than con­jec­ture about the sta­bility of this par­tic­ular com­pound in this par­tic­ular solution.

    It seems we come full circle. Such is the world of the RC. In the absence of com­pleted sci­entific testing and ana­lysis — it’s all guesswork.

    So…it could very well come down to these two ques­tions of prac­tic­ality; what method of inges­tion is pre­ferred and how much discreet/​secure freezer storage space does one have?

    Until defin­itive data is pro­duced, it would seem prefer­able to have dry powder ready to place in solu­tion (if/​when ethanol solu­tion proves to be the best method), than to have to reverse that process should dry storage prove to be the best — and the RC is now sitting in solution.

  17. Erod says:

    So this probly means, if they haven’t already, that they’ll probly move forward with devel­oping some sort of test, right?

  18. x1 says:

    Sorry lazarus, I didn’t mean to imply that Europeans were more “con­ser­vative” (obvi­ously they aren’t, or at least can’t be lumped together like that.…although what’s up with the burqa bans? I mean, ser­i­ously, what the fuck?!).

    I can’t really comment on the UK/​Europe at all, other than to say that Gordon Brown seems like a bit of a clutz, and Spanish beaches are full of hotties.

    Well, as regards US state legis­latures, the tip of the spear on the way to national JWH pro­hib­i­tion IS def­in­itely more of our tra­di­tional hard­core con­ser­vative bastion states thus far…I mean, with the excep­tion of Kansas, all the states that have taken action thus far are “Southern” (and Kansas is hon­orary Southern, by virtue of the state school board’s con­tinuing mutual mas­turb­a­tion with the Dis­covery Insti­tute), where often­times the Demo­crats in the legis­latures are just as socially con­ser­vative as the Repub­licans. There aren’t really very many lib­erals to be found yet to even take up the argu­ment for con­sid­er­a­tion. It will be inter­esting to see if there is any more sign of intel­li­gent life when these matters are taken up in legis­latures outside the Con­fed­eracy or the Bible Belt. Although I won’t get my hopes up. Maybe at least Oregon won’t imme­di­ately roll over.

    OK…so we remain “incon­clusive” on long term storage. The good news is some of us have powder, and some of us have liquid. I’ll be sure to report the con­tinuing con­di­tion of my juice. You powder mongers do the same.

  19. Jwndy says:

    One piece of fairly con­clusive evid­ence of oxid­a­tion of JWH might be the bad batch everyone got from Rez­Chems last month. Alec (the head sales mgr) told me on the phone that their truck was delayed (in TX?) for a while and the product was over­ex­posed and oxid­ized, thus pro­du­cing the redish tint people were reporting. There was one other post in one of my earlier “snippet” copies that said that Oxid­a­tion could cause a reddish tint.

    This may not be con­clusive, but it does provide two data points in favor of 1) the product is sus­cept­ible to oxid­a­tion , and 2) it degrates product quality.

  20. lazarus says:

    Erod -
    It’s been reported that the NCAA is fever­ishly pushing to develop a test. With the per­form­ance enhan­cing RCs con­tinuing to be a problem in ath­letics it seems the testers will now have an even wider net to cast.

    I know next-​​to-​​nothing about the poten­tial costs of such “enhanced” testing. but it seems to me that the average employer is not likely to invest in a series of expansive drug tests — unless they believe they have some spe­cific reason to. With everyone seeking to cut costs it appears more prob­able that in the short-​​term they will stick to the stand­ard­ized pro­ced­ures for routine testing.
    Now that the nanny state is hell-​​bent on nipping the spice “problem” in the bud — it may be some time before the JWH tests are expanded beyond the ath­letic programs.

    But like everything else — only time will tell.

    x1 -
    With the “con­ser­vative” states on such a roll with this crusade — how long do you think it will be before the feds insti­tute a nation­wide ban? I mean, “it’s all for the sake of the chil­dren!“
    As the pub­li­city increases so will the pres­sure on Wash­ington to do some­thing about this hor­rific epi­demic. Regarding those states that will have not yet have insti­tuted local bans, the pos­i­tion the feds have taken regarding states that have eased can­nabis restric­tions is a pretty good indic­a­tion of where this may be headed.
    Who knows — they might just resort to invoking the inter­state com­merce clause. They seem fond of using it for everything else.

    “Powder monger” — hmm…
    Nah — I think I’ll stick with “lazarus”.

  21. Amber says:

    lazarus–
    Your comment “it’s all for the sake of the chil­dren“
    If the gov­ern­ment truly believe that there would be no legal tobacco or alcohol.
    Most chil­dren get a hold of those way before they ever smoke marijuana or any of its legal affil­i­ates.
    But wait! They make taxes off of those thing.…

  22. Overwatch says:

    I’ve been lurking within this forum for six months and wanted to thank everyone for their par­ti­cip­a­tion. Input from X1, Lazarus and many others have been a great and fre­quently con­sulted resource for my “research”.

    I decided to post after reading the “legis­lative” turn this thread has taken. Living in Mis­souri, deep in the heart of the bible-​​belt /​ methamphet­amine capital of the world, our state is fol­lowing Kansas in this ban. I wanted to quote a Mis­souri State Rep­res­ent­ative during a recent inter­view regarding the bill to ban JWH com­pounds he sponsored.

    Mis­souri state Rep. Ward Franz, (R-​​West Plains) said “We don’t know much about this, but it’s going to end up killing some­body,” Franz said.

    Ha! Ser­i­ously? We don’t know any­thing about it — it’s going to kill someone. I think this pretty much sums up their idiotic, fear mon­gering approach to this and their quest to pass a law under an “emer­gency clause”. Iron­ic­ally the West Plains area where Franz ori­gin­ates is likely the largest meth pro­du­cing region in the state.

    Addi­tion­ally, I’ll weigh in on SACRA Research. I’ve used them twice and can only echo the pos­itive reports. I ques­tioned via E-​​mail their lower purity report and darker than expected color. They promptly replied with plaus­ible jus­ti­fic­a­tion which edu­cated me a bit.

    I started vaping –18 but it quickly grew out of favor after feeling like a Meth tweeker w/​ a light bulb and lighter. I’ve been bonging a herbal blend for a few months with great results. Still slightly un-​​nerved about not known what’s in the blend, I’m going to make a 400 ml liquid E batch this week. I’ve ordered –18 & –73, a 500 ml gradu­ated cyl­inder and will fol­lowing X1’s ratio /​ volume. I will report back with a com­par­ison to vaping and herbal blends.

  23. lazarus says:

    Sacra advert­ises the 018 as “beige solid”, the 073 as “light yellow solid“with purity levels at 97+ to 99+% respect­ively. Did the actual product vary from these descrip­tions? And what kind of explan­a­tion did they give you? It would be inter­esting if they claimed to have had an oxid­a­tion issue as well.

    As for your state’s pending legis­la­tion, I’ve been told by one of your fellow Mis­sourians that the Senate has removed the insane felony sen­ten­cing pro­vi­sion found in the House version. It seems there are some sen­ators con­cerned the state has already locked up too many kids for getting high.
    Golly gee — d’ya think?

  24. x1 says:

    Mis­souri! Ah, that’s who I forgot. A very inter­esting state. The quint­es­sen­tial split state. Half the pop­u­la­tion is still living in the middle ages. The other half are trying soooo hard to progress-​​ify, god bless ‘em.

    And I forgot Ken­tucky. The legis­lators in Ken­tucky don’t know much about this stuff either. But they, too, are certain that the things they don’t under­stand should be insta-​​banned, just in case.

    Over­watch, just be ready for a longer, stronger test. You prob­ably need minimum 6 hours for the main arc, but hon­estly the only thing that can recharge and refresh the brain after the heavier oral inebri­ation is a good bit of sleep. Don’t plan on attending your jazzer­cise class. If pre­vi­ously uni­ti­ated, during peak of a 3 mL liquid dose (7.5 mg JWH intake) you’ll be con­sid­er­ably arsed* just to get off the couch.

    *UK-​​origin of blog, RESPEK

  25. Synchronium says:

    Respek.

    So, is this getting a bit long now? Shall set up a new post and the dis­cus­sion can carry on in the com­ments there?

  26. x1 says:

    Works for me, Mr. Synch. Thanks so much for hosting. Lots yet to be dis­cussed and con­sidered. Our DEA moves slow. We may yet be JWH legal over here for a while…another 6 months to a year at LEAST, anyway.

  27. Overwatch says:

    Lazarus: The color of my –18 could accur­ately be described as beige. Sort of a light sand color would be another accurate descrip­tion. Expecting an off white powder and a higher purity per­centage, I sent them an E-​​mail inquiry. They replied basic­ally saying color is not indic­ative of purity and it varies based upon pro­duc­tion and origin. They listed a color range that they have seen /​ sold that ranged from white through brown. I unfor­tu­nately deleted the E-​​mail so I can’t quote it entirely. They did however not mention, nor did I ask, any­thing about oxid­a­tion issues.

    Your Mis­sourian friend is correct regarding the bill going back to the House fol­lowing an amend­ment par­al­leling the pen­al­ties with those of marijuana. I would anti­cipate it being law in roughly 30 days. And thank good­ness for that. It will give a warm, glowing sense of accom­plish­ment to all involved in this “Fake Reefer Madness” while Mis­souri con­tinues to lead in Meth man­u­fac­turing and the state spirals into an unpre­ced­ented debt.

    X1: I’m looking forward to the 6 hour ride and exper­i­en­cing –73 which I can only assume I haven’t had in the herbal blends. I do however hope it still packs the two hour fist pumping, air guitar playing, lip syncing enhanced music appre­ci­ation I get with the herbal blends. Not to mention the enhance­ment of sex which I would assume par­al­lels MDMA. (By the way, your comment about the rat autopsy /​ killer orgasm drifted humor­ously through my mind during the act a few days ago.) If not, I may try a heavier –18 ratio.

  28. x1 says:

    Ha! Oh, don’t worry. You’re gonna get the total musico-​​genital power punch. If I were not a some­what dis­cip­lined creature, this stuff would’ve morphed me into a per­man­ently useless quiv­ering slob­bering manslut.

    I am reminded of the warning in the Cialis commercials…“If you get an erec­tion lasting more than four hours…”

  29. Jwndy says:

    The color of my Sacra 018 was beige, tan, sand (all three woudl be about right). The inter­esting thing was the 073 was exactly the same color. Was anyone else’s Sacra 073 the same color as their 018? The package was labled cor­rectly, but you couldn’t tell them apart by the color. I haven’t tried my 073 yet.

    Sacra seems to be a reput­able company. It is even on the Google “pre­ferred” list (or whatever they call it.……along with Research Chem­icals), so I’m not really ques­tioning their honesty. I was just won­dering if anyone got the same colors as I did.

    On another front, I tried K2 Summit from k2in​cense​.org. I also tried their Ultra, which was pretty good, but the Summit (or at least this Summit) was said to be the 3.2 beer of syn­thetics by one of my friends. If this is typical of Summit, then it really makes me wonder what caused all the rave reviews over the last year. I’ve posted a few ques­tions at Kogged, but got no response. Does anyone else have exper­i­ence with this supplier?

  30. Erod says:

    Just won­dering what do you folks think, or know about Black Mamba? Tried it, thought it was cool. Went out a couple days later and bought two dif­fernt drug test and passed, that’s hoe real the effects felt. Just want to know what you thought of B. M. Thanks.

  31. IcYA says:

    Hey guys

    Firsst of all I wanted to say thank you for all of these valu­able posts. I have been fol­lowing this forum/​blog for a while now and have learned a lot. It is quite amazing to me where science is going, and the ability to truly study the can­naboid receptors to prove once and for all the medical applic­a­tion of marijuana! After reading all your posts for some time now I thought it was time for me to pipe in (no pun intended ; )) and clear up some loose ends that haven’t been talked about.

    First of all I want to throw some­thing out that all of my fellow pot­heads here can 100% agree with……. As we all know, there are two forms of weed. The Indica, and the Sativa. For those who don’t know, the indica is more of a body stoned feeling, the feeling where moving from the couch is one of the hardest things we’ve ever done. The indica has a greater affinity to the CB2 rec­petor, which is apart of the peri­pheral nervous system. The peri­pheral nervous system is what con­trols our bodily fuc­tions without us thinking, ie. Breathing, heart beat, the feeling of hot or cold. So when the CB2 rec­petor is activ­ated it is believed that a sep­ar­a­tion occurs between the peri­pheral nervous system, and the central nervous system. When I say sep­ar­a­tion I only mean that the signals are firing, well, slower! That’s why we get so “stoned” from a good purple. Our brain is in fact talking to our body…. Slower! So in turn, we move….. slower!

    Now for the sativas! Oh the sativas! A good sativa is known to give the user energy, a func­tional high. This happens because sativas are known to have a higher binding affinity to the CB1 receptor which is found in the central nervous system. Aka the brain and the spinal chord. One of the main actions that takes place from the CB1 receptor activ­a­tion is the inhib­i­tion of our main inhib­itory neur­o­trans­mit­ters GABA. For those who don’t know GABA is part of what makes us tired, Gaba slows the trans­mis­sion of our exitory neur­o­trans­mit­ters such as Dopamine, Epi­neph­rine, and Nor-​​epinephrine. So when the CB1 receptor is activ­ated it SLOWS the output of GABA, which in turn SPEEDS UP the output of Dopamine, Epi­neph­rine, and Nor-​​epinephrine! So with more dopamine floating around in our body we in turn get more energy!

    Sorry to ramble on about real weed, but I felt it was neces­sary to give a simple explan­a­tion of the can­naboid receptors. After all that’s what our great JWH com­pounds affect!

    Now to the actual subject of this entire blog….. JWH!

    I think its important to know that the JWH, and all syn­thetic can­nabin­oids were in fact created to have affinity to only 1 of the two receptors. Like I said in the begin­ning sci­ent­ists are trying to find out exactly where and what causes the medi­cinal effects of marijuana. So for JWH-​​018, this com­pound was created to be a PURE INDICA…. Its affinity to the CB2 receptor is about 3 – 4 times greater than to the CB1 receptor. This is why when the 18 is ingested we get the body stoned feeling. JWh-​​018 has an overall higher binding affinity to both receptors vs normal, real weed, so an over­dose is a very real situ­ation! For the poster above named Chrissy….. you are very very lucky your still walking around nor­mally! Im assuming an entire bowl of JWh would equate to about 400mg’s….. which from my cal­cu­la­tions is in fact…. An overdose!

    My per­sonal favorite JWH com­pounds is the 081! This com­pound has a 10x greater affinity to the CB1 receptor than to the CB2. Which means it gives fant­astic energy! For me per­son­ally it leaves me with an extremely clear mind, and a higher state on consciousness.

    Now as far as storage goes…. About 8 months ago I was also won­dering all these same ques­tions as far as what is the best way to pre­serve, and amplify the effects of the JWH. So I tried two things. One I went and bought some everclear and made myself a small bottle to where 1ml=10mg’s. Two I tried cooking it with coconut oil, which con­tains primarily sat­ur­ated fats. I weighed out the oil so 1 gram of oil(one gram of fat) would contain 10mg’s. coconut oil solid­i­fies at room tem­per­ature so I poped it in the fridge with the everclear. The oil worked right off the bat! The everclear took about 2 months before I could feel any solid effects….. however one things is for sure….. after about 4 months of sitting the everclear seemed to WAY OVER­POWER the fat… so it tells me the everclear just takes time. However I never tried heating the everclear„ prob­ably would have saved a lot of time! Oh well.
    By the way I used the 081 in these tests.

    Anyways guys thanks for reading and please correct me if I am not correct on any­thing, were all just trying to learn!

    Enjoy you RC’s

  32. Synchronium says:

    For those who don’t know, the indica is more of a body stoned feeling, the feeling where moving from the couch is one of the hardest things we’ve ever done. The indica has a greater affinity to the CB2 rec­petor, which is apart of the peri­pheral nervous system. The peri­pheral nervous system is what con­trols our bodily fuc­tions without us thinking, ie. Breathing, heart beat, the feeling of hot or cold.

    No.

    The CB2 receptor is expressed primarily in immune cells and the gut. Activ­a­tion doesn’t seem to cause any psy­cho­active effects. Also, the peri­pheral nervous system doesn’t control any of those things. Your peri­pheral nervous system includes things like sensory neur­ones, pain fibres, motor fibres, etc. Your central, or auto­nomic nervous system (ie brain) control all of the above.

    I’m sure GABA doesn’t make us feel tired either. It’s an inhib­itory neur­o­trans­mitter, sure, but that doesn’t mean it slows us down or any­thing. It acts like a brake, pre­venting certain signals from being sent as and when required. Check out the “glutamate hypo­thesis” behind schizo­phrenia for more info.

    Not read the rest about JWH-​​xxx yet, got a doob to smoke.

    Out of interest, where did you acquire this “phamar­co­logy know­ledge”? Perhaps we can suggest some better sources?

    Also, I’ll create that second thread later tonight or tomorrow.

  33. IcYa says:

    Uni­ver­sity of Hawaii manoa.. Bio­chem­istry, and bot­no­chem­istry majors.

    This blog is mostly about JWH and not biology so I didn’t want to get into it to much. Sorry if some of the inform­a­tion is off it’s just my under­standing. And I respect­fully dis­agree about GABA. I cannot speak for anyone but myself but GABA indu­cing com­pounds make me tired.

    That’d be great if u could start a more bio­chem­istry based blog!
    Thanks for the corresctions

  34. Synchronium says:

    Actu­ally, you’re right about GABA making you feel drowsy (of course, benzos, barbs etc), sorry.

    You’re prob­ably wrong about CB1 & GABA inter­ac­tions though. You paint far too simplistic a picture.

    I reckon the dif­fer­ences between indica and sativa lie in the dif­fering affin­ities at other receptors of the com­pounds in each. Indica strains may contain a higher pro­por­tion of some­thing that acts on GABA receptors, for instance. Whatever the reason, the CB1 receptor is the only can­nabinoid receptor of interest here.

    Here are a few biochem related posts:

  35. Sasha says:

    Let me begin with my cre­den­tials as it may be of sig­ni­ficant import­ance to those of you who read this post. While I would not con­sider myself to be any­thing close to an expert in can­na­bonoid receptors, I have done my own per­sonal research into this topic as well as the inform­a­tion I have gained throughout my edu­ca­tional career. I am cur­rently attending my third year at the Uni­ver­sity of Southern Cali­fornia Medical School and have gained an interest in the topic of can­na­bon­oids and their respecting receptors as I am a self pro­claimed pot head.

    I per­son­ally do not agree with the above state­ment from Syn­chronium. Yes IcYA was incor­rect about the nervous system, however saying no effects come from the CB2 activ­a­tion is trying to tell everyone who has tried JWH18 that they are feeling nothing and it is all a placebo effect. I have found an excel­lent link from another forum showing the various binding affin­ities for numerous can­nabinoid com­pounds.
    http://​www​.drugs​-forum​.com/​f​o​r​u​m​/​s​h​o​w​t​h​r​e​a​d​.​p​h​p​?​t​=​1​1​7​873

    About the GABA. Its my opinion both of you are correct, IcYA wasnt being precise about his word choices and did not explain it cor­rectly. However he is correct about GABA making you tired. Thus why GHB and all sleep med­ic­a­tions work through GABA.

    To all those fol­lowing this blog it is my sug­ges­tion for you to do your own research through various medical pub­lic­a­tions. JWH as well as the various other can­na­bon­oids are clas­si­fied as a “research chem­ical.” I would suggest to all to do your own research through altern­ative methods as opposed to taking any indi­viduals posting as the the defin­itive truth on JWH.

  36. Synchronium says:

    I don’t think binding affin­ities are the whole story.

    My main issue was that saying CB1 receptors only “tar­geted” by one type of weed. CB1 receptors do lead to reduced GABA release, but CB1 receptors are respons­ible for most of the effects of Indica AND sativa strains.

    I’m pretty sure that a highly selective CB2 agonist (not just selective for CB2 over CB1, but selective like salvinorin-​​a is for the k opioid receptor) would have neg­lig­able psy­cho­active effect. Like I men­tioned before, other com­pounds could be binding to other receptors. What I forgot to mention, and perhaps prob­ably more import­antly, the dif­ferent com­pounds could also bind to novel can­nabinoid receptors not yet clas­si­fied. That could be the case for JWH-​​018 too.

  37. Erod says:

    Uhhhhhh, anybody else ever feel like the whole world is a tuxedo, and you’re just a pair of brown shoes. I just want to get a feel what you all (if you used it)think of black mamba.

  38. syrup1 says:

    So, how would this work for migraines? I have a daughter who has severe migrines. I was won­dering if this would help her? I think some of it may be anxiety related.

  39. IcYA says:

    syrup1

    Its just my opinion that any can­nabinoid will not be helpful if the migraines are in fact migraines. now if they are anxiety related, abso­lutely some of these com­pounds would help!

    i do have a few sug­ges­tions for you though. A friend of mine used to have ter­rible migraines and it turns out she was extremely mag­nesium defi­cient! any form of mag­nesium would do however i would suggest mag­nesium bicar­bonate. You actu­ally have to make that form of mag­nesium but its verrrrryyyy simple! here is a post about it, and do your own search on mag­nesium bicar­bonate and ull see why i sug­ggest it… its great stuff!
    http://​www​.socialanxi​etysup​port​.com/​f​o​r​u​m​/​f​1​1​/​m​a​k​e​-​y​o​u​r​-​o​w​n​-​m​a​g​n​e​s​i​u​m​-​b​i​c​a​r​b​o​n​a​t​e​-​d​r​i​n​k​-​t​a​s​t​e​s​-​s​w​e​e​t​-​4​6​5​55/

    hope it helps

  40. Jwndy says:

    Unless I am wrong (which happens more than I like), the JWH-​​018 is the sativa “peppy” like sub­stance that binds to CB1 and the JWH-​​073 is the indica “stony” sub­stance that binds to CB2.

    I read that in a couple of other places, but it is also stated in Posts 55 and 95 above.

    From Wiki: When smoked or orally ingested, JWH-​​018 pro­duces some effects similar to those of can­nabis. Its effects are by some persons con­sidered as very similar to those of can­nabis, but more of a general body high with unusu­ally clear cerebral effects, the dif­fer­ence being ana­logous to that between can­nabis that has a higher com­ponent ratio of can­nabis sativa to can­nabis indica.

    JWH-​​073 is an anal­gesic chem­ical from the naph­thoylindole family, which acts as a can­nabinoid agonist at both the CB1 and CB2 receptors. It is some­what selective for the CB2 subtype, with affinity at this subtype approx­im­ately 5x the affinity at CB1.[2] The abbre­vi­ation JWH stands for John W. Huffman, one of the inventors of the compound

    Who is right?

  41. Sasha says:

    Well you are correct it does bind to CB1, however it has a 3-​​4x greater affinity to CB2

    IcYA is correct, if youve ever tried 81, youll know the dif­fer­ence. the 81 is a very “peppy” compound

    check out this forum, it lays out all the syn­thetic com­pounds and shows their binding affinity

    http://​www​.drugs​-forum​.com/​f​o​r​u​m​/​s​h​o​w​t​h​r​e​a​d​.​p​h​p​?​t​=​1​1​7​873

  42. Travis says:

    ok, so weed is great and it grows the way it does„ i think we should all stick with it,

    k2 works but still there is some­thing to be said about the nice red hairs and purple buds that u can never beat„ best upside is drug testing :-)

    KEEP IT REAL lol

  43. x1 says:

    I think we’re all being thrown for a loop by the term “binding affinity,” and tending to force our own inter­pret­a­tions of what we think that means, for dif­ferent receptors, as regards the extremely complex phe­nomenon of a head and/​or body stone.

    The 018 hits as cerebral…but it also hits the body. I have read it described as a sativa/​indica hybrid tilting more toward sativa. Whereas I have read 073 described more as indica, body-​​oriented, without the cerebral or manic edge of 018. But these are inad­equate, rough gen­er­al­iz­a­tions. And you cer­tainly can’t gauge the exper­i­en­tial dif­fer­ences by peering at a binding affinity chart. I think Synch’s point about novel receptors is timely, because there is recent evid­ence for such, which dra­mat­ic­ally com­plexi­fic­ates the whole shebang.

    And now at the risk of falling back into the forced crude inter­pret­a­tion black hole, can it be said that CB1 is the gateway to ston­ingham, and CB2 is the bridge to paink­illerton? And mixing com­ple­mentary agon­ists is like having a care­fully planned orgy at the commons, but without reck­oning that all the home­less who live in the woods nearby would drop trow and storm the flesh pile?

  44. Synchronium says:

    CB2 receptors do seem to be involved with nociception:

    The can­nabinoid receptors CB(1) and CB(2) are class A G-​​protein-​​coupled receptors. It is well known that can­nabinoid receptor agon­ists produce relief of pain in a variety of animal models by inter­acting with can­nabinoid receptors. CB(1) receptors are located cent­rally and peri­pher­ally, whereas CB(2) receptors are expressed primarily on immune cells and tissues. A large body of pre­clin­ical data sup­ports the hypo­thesis that either CB(2)-selective agon­ists or CB(1) agon­ists acting at peri­pheral sites, or with limited CNS exposure, will inhibit pain and neuroin­flam­ma­tion without side effects within the CNS. There has been a growing interest in devel­oping can­nabinoid agon­ists. Many new can­nabinoid ligands have been syn­thes­ized and studied cov­ering a wide variety of novel struc­tural scaf­folds. This review focuses on the present devel­op­ment of can­nabinoid agon­ists with an emphasis on selective CB(2) agon­ists and peri­pher­ally restricted CB(1) or CB(1)/CB(2) dual agon­ists for treat­ment of inflam­matory and neuro­pathic pain.

    Cheng Y, Hitch­cock SA. Tar­geting can­nabinoid agon­ists for inflam­matory and neuro­pathic pain. Expert Opin Investig Drugs. 2007 Jul;16(7):951 – 65.
    http://​www​.ncbi​.nlm​.nih​.gov/​p​u​b​m​e​d​/​1​7​5​9​4​182

    This bit is also interesting:

    … A large body of pre­clin­ical data sup­ports the hypo­thesis that either CB(2)-selective agon­ists or CB(1) agon­ists acting at peri­pheral sites, or with limited CNS exposure, will inhibit pain and neuroin­flam­ma­tion without side effects within the CNS. …

    Peri­pher­ally acting CB1 agon­ists /​ CB2 agon­ists –> no psy­cho­active “side effects”.

    Surely then the dif­fer­ence between the JWH-xxx’s is due to binding at novel can­nabinoid receptors or other receptors we haven’t considered.

    COM­MENTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW CLOSED. YOU CAN CON­TINUE DIS­CUSSING SYN­THETIC CAN­NABIN­OIDS HERE OR INDI­VIDUAL SMOKING MIX­TURES HERE.

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